Passenger Trains > LIRR questions

Looks like most ot the two-main-track branches are signaled for operation in both directions, and are operated under CTC rules. At one time, were these lines Current of Traffic D-251? When was CTC installed?

There are few [or perhaps none] wayside signals, being replaced by Automatic Speed Control. When did they disappear?Are there any automatic block signals left?

While signaled in both directions, it seems rare that trains run 'wrong main', under normal circumstances. Are the such circumstances when trains do run wrong main? Rush-hour expresses?

At stations where the railroad isn't elevated, it appears that gates descend at road crossings adjacent to the station when the train approaches, then remain down while train works that station. Does this tempt motorists to go around the gates? Could gates descend upon the train's departure?

Why are long trains run in the off-peak?

Thanks in advance!

JGFuller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Why are long trains run in the off-peak?

Because it is not worth the cost - in money, time, or yard space - to break hundreds of long trains down for the off peak times and put them back together for the next peak time.

Brian

JGFuller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Looks like most ot the two-main-track branches are
> signaled for operation in both directions, and are
> operated under CTC rules. At one time, were these
> lines Current of Traffic D-251? When was CTC
> installed?
>
> There are few wayside signals, being replaced by
> Automatic Speed Control. When did they
> disappear?Are there any automatic block signals
> left?

The CTC project that also reduced the number of intermediate wayside signals was carried out in the 1970's and 80's after the PRR turned over the operation to the better funded MTA.  This went along with the Babylon branch and similar grade seperation projects.  Intermediate signals remain on the trunk between Penn Station and Jamacia, parts of the Atlantic Ave branch and some of the non-electrified territory.

>
> While signaled in both directions, it seems rare
> that trains run 'wrong main', under normal
> circumstances. Are the such circumstances when
> trains do run wrong main? Rush-hour expresses?

The trunk us run on a 3+1 system during peak periods.  Elsewhere traffic levels are sufficient such that double barreling is generally impractical.  Regerse operation is reserved for tracks being blocked or out of service.

>
> At stations where the railroad isn't elevated, it
> appears that gates descend at road crossings
> adjacent to the station when the train approaches,
> then remain down while train works that station.
> Does this tempt motorists to go around the gates?
> Could gates descend upon the train's departure?

The wait times are modest even with station stops compared to long freight trains so locals typically know better than to try to duck around crossings.  I have heard that some crossings will time out for stopping trains and it is integrated with the signaling system so that the cabs will drop before the gates raise.  Re-Lowering would then by triggered manually or via an island circuit.

>
> Why are long trains run in the off-peak?

It is generally considered to be more cost effective to maintain trainsets as opposed to splitting trains at terminals.  This may or may not be true and other factors may influence the decision like union work rules.

>
> Thanks in advance!

On the Main Line through Mineola, both of the two tracks are used for inbound trains for more than an hour during the morning rush. The schedule is designed so that no outbound trains run at that time. There is a third-main project underway through the area that presumably will relieve this issue in the future, but it's a very involved project.

 

toledopatch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> On the Main Line through Mineola, both of the two
> tracks are used for inbound trains for more than
> an hour during the morning rush. The schedule is
> designed so that no outbound trains run at that
> time. There is a third-main project underway
> through the area that presumably will relieve this
> issue in the future, but it's a very involved
> project.
>
Yes. Reverse peak on weekday mornings, there is the 6:07am to Ronkonkoma followed by the 7:37am to Ronkonkoma. The main line is turned west once the 6:07 reaches Hicksville. If it is more than 7 minuets late, the entire inbound rush hour is ruined. All other Oyster Bay, Hicksville, and Huntington trains must be pre-staged at their initial terminals before that. The 7:37, after the 90 minute gap, carries many reverse peak commuters. It fills a 12 car consist. Seen it myself.

No MU consist is under 6 cars due to fear of 3rd rail gapping issues. Most off peak trains to Huntington, Babylon, and especially Ronkonkoma, need to be at least 8 cars. It is not worth their while to cut consists from 10 or 12 cars, and there is often no place to put the drilled cars. The West Side Yard during the day is chock full and they have to deadhead a few trains back to Long Island for mid-day storage as it is. 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/04/19 06:45 by joemvcnj.

Guess the main line got CTC Hall to Divide when
they elevated at Floral Park and Hicksville --
it's rule 261 in the 6/62 timetable, along with
the Port Jeff double track. Montauk Branch
double track was all rule 251 in 5/64.

In May 1983 Harold to Jay was all 251; in
May 1985 "no current of traffic" on track 2
Harold to Jay.

In May 1983 rule 261 Port to Babylon;
in May 1985 "no current of traffic"
Valley to Babylon.

Divide to PW and Babylon to Y still
current-of-traffic in 5/85; ditto most
of the double-track branches.

Edit: as you'd expect, main line tracks 3-4 were current of traffic west of Queens in 1964 (except track 4 Hollis to Queens). Just 1 and 2 were both ways.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/04/19 15:58 by timz.

Nothing simple about running THAT railroad, is there?

SpeederDriver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nothing simple about running THAT railroad, is there?

Nope. If you reschedule 1 train, you reschedule 10 of them.  If they put out special timetables for track work on one branch, such as to re-pattern them in one direction to be 12 minutes later, or something, half the branches are affected, due to dove-tailing at Jamaica and general flows. There is really nothing else like the LIRR anywhere. Service planning on MNRR is much easier. 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/04/19 17:05 by joemvcnj.

Many thanks for all your responses - very interesting history.

>>>>>There is really nothing else like the LIRR anywhere.

Many years ago i recall traveling from Patchogue to Penn Station via the central branch, diesel power requiring a "change at Jamaca."  So the diesel train pulls in on track one, New York train has pulled in on Track 2 (which has platform on both sides), and the Brooklyn train is on track 3.  So if you're going to Brooklyn, you get off the track 1 train, pass through the track 2 train and board the train on track 3.  I have no idea who thought that up, but it's brilliant.  Track 7 has the same platform arrangement at track 2, so it works the other way in the evening.  If one has never watched Jamaca work in the rush hour, it should be on your bucket list.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/04/19 18:24 by SpeederDriver.

Sadly, the above as far as Brooklyn trains is going away with the conversion of the Atlantic branch into a shuttle service with separated platforms.

MattW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sadly, the above as far as Brooklyn trains is
> going away with the conversion of the Atlantic
> branch into a shuttle service with separated
> platforms.

Does this have to do with the east side project?

SpeederDriver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MattW Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Sadly, the above as far as Brooklyn trains is
> > going away with the conversion of the Atlantic
> > branch into a shuttle service with separated
> > platforms.
>
> Does this have to do with the east side project?

Yes. Most curent Brooklyn service from Long Island will be diverted to Manhattan. They want the complexity of trains crossing each others' paths simplified. Some switches at Jay interlocking might well be removed.

Posted from Android

So the transfers will continue as in the past? Just be Penn/GCT trains, opposed to Penn/Atlantic?

So if you're going to Brooklyn, there will be a hassle factor.

SpeederDriver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So the transfers will continue as in the past?
> Just be Penn/GCT trains, opposed to
> Penn/Atlantic?
>
> So if you're going to Brooklyn, there will be a
> hassle factor.

You will have to use the foot overbridge and concourse to get to the platform being built for Brooklyn Shuttle service adjacent to the JFK Airtrain station.

SpeederDriver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So the transfers will continue as in the past?
> Just be Penn/GCT trains, opposed to
> Penn/Atlantic?
> So if you're going to Brooklyn, there will be a
> hassle factor.

I also hear there will not be dove-tailing. Whether Penn Station or ESA train, they will simply come in, dwell for 2 minutes and go, except maybe for diesel trains whose terminus is Jamaica or Hunterspoint. 

Brooklyn trains should be running every 10 - 15 minutes off the new Platform F, tracks 9 and 10. (the platform letters A through E are gone though). I don't know what the fare policy will be or if they will put it on NYCT fare control. 

If you remember the concrete intermediate mezzanine that ran beneath the tracks, over the Sutphin Blvd sidewalk, that had some concessions, that is totally gone now 20 years+. 

There is quite a building spree going on around the station. 

Another question: NJT seems to prefer electric-locomotive-propelled coaches, which seems [by one observation of such a train at Newark] to be able to accelerate as quickly as MU eqpt. Has LIRR ever considered that?

JGFuller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Another question: NJT seems to prefer electric-locomotive-propelled coaches, which seems to be able to accelerate as quickly as MU eqpt. Has LIRR ever considered that?

There is a major difference between NJT's high voltage AC overhead catenary system and LIRR's 750 volt DC third rail system.   The hardware to handle the lower voltage is easier stuff under the MU cars.   There are lots of MU equipment run off overhead catenary though. 

I think you will find that NJT's preference for two level equipment has more to do with their preference for locomotive hauled coaches.  The MUs have most of the power equipment under the floor of a single level coach.  In a two level coach, the lower floor is much closer to the rail head, thus no room for hardware.

Brian

An ALP46 with five Comets (or four bilevels?)
will do a standing-start mile in about the same
time as Arrows. More cars, less acceleration.