Passenger Trains > Palmetto Service Extension to Miami ex-Savannah

Palmetto Service Extension to Miami ex-Savannah

It appears that the Palmetto was truncated from Miami to Savannah in 2004. 
Any specific reasons why the change was made?

Has the Northeast USA - Florida market demand increased and is there value in reinstating a daily Palmetto service to Miami? 

What are the benefits and possibilities of running a daily NYP-originating Palmetto from Jacksonville to Miami on the Florida East Coast tracks covering the major beach cities with intermediate stops?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/19 05:41 by NYC4096.

Running the Palmetto to Miami would require additional equipment and crew.

If I recall correctly, the reason given for cutting the Palmetto back to Savannah was Amtrak abandoning the use of the S-Line through north Florida (Waldo/Gainesville, Ocala, Wildwood/The Villages, and Dade City). This line is now the major CSX route from Central Florida to Jacksonville and beyond, as most of the A-Line through Orlando went under state ownership with the creation of SunRail (and now the DeLand to Palatka section is under Amtrak ownership).

As far as the Palmetto using the FEC, I really don’t see much benefit in a train that would end up serving those communities in the middle of the night.

Posted from iPhone

It makes sense to extend the Palmento but there is a lot of intermediate traffic on this train through Virginia and the Carolinas.  The problem is this train arrives in Savannah at 9pm and currently the running time from Savannah to Miami is 12 hours it would arrive in Miam at 9am.  Perhaps too early to get more traffic throughout the state of Florida.  I assume the running time down the FEC would would be about 3 hours less thus making the the arrival to Miami about 6am.  Any change with the schedule of the Palmetto north of Savannah may do more harm than good.

My recommendation would be to walk before you run.  Extend the Palmetto to Jacksonville and utilize the existing equipment thus making the economics better. Running down the FEC would be years away anyway.

Just my throughts on improving this route.

Even an extension to Jacksonville would be expensive because the same crew could not take the train back north with much less lay-up time. 

Certainly  think there is a  market  for a  couple  trains  Miami to  Jacksonville a  day. Making most  stops. FEC  would  want  capacity improvements.  Connections  could  be made at Jacksonville.
  Maybe  Virgin Rail  will do it!!

joemvcnj Wrote:
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> Even an extension to Jacksonville would be
> expensive because the same crew could not take the
> train back north with much less lay-up time. 

Also, given CSX's OTP performance the return trip would have relatively unreliable schedule, potentially leading to further cascading problems all the way back to New York.

I actually wonder how the incremental cost of running to JAX works out against the expected incremental revenue.

When I took Bright Line earlier this year the ticket agent was excited to tell me their service will someday be to Orlando and then Tampa and after that they were talking about Jacksonville.  While I have heard nothing official about Jacksonville if they upgrade that track too from Cocoa to Jacksonville it could be logical that Amtrak pays to run down the FEC for 1 or more of their trains.  Still years away though....

amtrakbill Wrote:
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> When I took Bright Line earlier this year the
> ticket agent was excited to tell me their service
> will someday be to Orlando and then Tampa and
> after that they were talking about Jacksonville. 
> While I have heard nothing official about
> Jacksonville if they upgrade that track too from
> Cocoa to Jacksonville it could be logical that
> Amtrak pays to run down the FEC for 1 or more of
> their trains.  Still years away though....

Orlando to Tampa, including the theme parks, seems to be next on their Florida list.  But, Orlando to Jacksonville does come up regularly

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
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> Orlando to Tampa, including the theme parks, seems
> to be next on their Florida list.  But, Orlando
> to Jacksonville does come up regularly

They have been working in the background on obtaining some early permits and preserving easements for the future extension to Jacksonville. Nothing worthy of big news flash at this time. JAX will come after Vegas. The targeted terminus at JAX is what used to be the old Union Station, now Convention Center. That will raise an issue of whatAmtrak does at JAX. They will probably try to stick to their own suburban station instead of moving to a facility where they will have to pay rent, like they are currently practicing in Miami.

Also with 10+ round trips on VTUSA the utility of extending Palmetto to Miami becaomes questionable, when a much cheaper and possibly faster solution would be to simply change trains at JAX. Probably the thing to work towards would be through ticketing first before addressing the complexities of running an odd ball train down VTUSA/FECR trackage.

Jishnu Wrote:
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> joemvcnj Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Even an extension to Jacksonville would be
> > expensive because the same crew could not take
> the
> > train back north with much less lay-up time. 
>
> Also, given CSX's OTP performance the return trip
> would have relatively unreliable schedule,
> potentially leading to further cascading problems
> all the way back to New York.
>
> I actually wonder how the incremental cost of
> running to JAX works out against the expected
> incremental revenue.

In the 1980's, Claytor did extend it to JAX expecting incremental accounting to be positive. He also extended a Detroit train to Toledo, and a KC- St Louis train to Centralia or Carbondale to connect with the CofNO for similar reasons. Tom Downs killed the latter two. I forgot the timelines of 89/90 being the Silver Palm extension to Miami,  then cut back to SAV by David Gunn with M&E gone. 

Another problem with tying the train up at JAX is the poor excuse for a station there. That station has 2 tracks and a short track on the south end, that can't hold the train, and there is nowhere to build another track. I don't know if trains are still split and combined at JAX. if the aren't, my points are mute. At SAV though there are 2 stub tracks that can hold 6-8 coaches, and the north one is set up to provide head end power with the engine shut down. Just my thoughts. 

Sam

Trainhand Wrote:
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> Another problem with tying the train up at JAX is
> the poor excuse for a station there. That station
> has 2 tracks and a short track on the south end,
> that can't hold the train, and there is nowhere to
> build another track. I don't know if trains are
> still split and combined at JAX. if the aren't, my
> points are moot.

No train combining or splitting has been done at Jacksonville for years. Instead of running Tampa and Miami sections of the two Silver trains, the Silver Star makes an in-and-out move for Tampa out of somewhere near Lakeland on its way to/from Miami, while the Silver Meteor's Tampa service is a bus connection at Orlando.

toledopatch Wrote:
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>
> No train combining or splitting has been done at
> Jacksonville for years. Instead of running Tampa
> and Miami sections of the two Silver trains, the
> Silver Star makes an in-and-out move for Tampa out
> of somewhere near Lakeland on its way to/from
> Miami, while the Silver Meteor's Tampa service is
> a bus connection at Orlando.

"Somewhere near Lakeland" is Auburndale, and it is actually closer to Winter Haven than Lakeland IIRC.

Jishnu Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> toledopatch Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > No train combining or splitting has been done
> at
> > Jacksonville for years. Instead of running
> Tampa
> > and Miami sections of the two Silver trains,
> the
> > Silver Star makes an in-and-out move for Tampa
> out
> > of somewhere near Lakeland on its way to/from
> > Miami, while the Silver Meteor's Tampa service
> is
> > a bus connection at Orlando.
>
> "Somewhere near Lakeland" is Auburndale, and it is
> actually closer to Winter Haven than Lakeland
> IIRC.

Stipulated. I stated Lakeland because that's the stop the Star makes twice. I know the FEC pretty well but am not railfan-qualified over there.
 

Summary of the Palmetto's history:

1976-1998:  NY-Savannah (the Carolinian operated NY-Richmond VA as part of the Palmetto, Fall 1984-Fall 1985)
1988-Fall 1994: Jacksonville (combined with Carolinian NY-Rocky Mount, Spring 1990-Spring 1991)
Fall 1994-Feb 1995: NY-Tampa
Fall 1996-Spring 2002: Full service with sleepers/diner, renamed Silver Palm, NY-Jacksonville-Tampa via SAL line, then to Miami
            (I was on the inaugural and still have the souvenir Silver Palm coffee mug)
Spring 2002-Fall 2004: sleepers/diner removed, renamed Palmetto
Fall 2004: cut back to Savannah

Safe to say that in the current environment there is absolutely no chance of extending the Palmetto.

One advantage of Savannah as a terminus is that the 1962 ACL/SAL station -- as much as people despite its location -- has a track to store a 13-car train overnight on the north side of the station pointing north (and a shorter track on the south side of the station pointing south) without blocking either of the station's through-tracks. Jacksonville has only one storage track, it's short, it points south, and as far as I know it hasn't been used in ages.

Trainhand Wrote:
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> Another problem with tying the train up at JAX is
> the poor excuse for a station there. That station
> has 2 tracks and a short track on the south end,
> that can't hold the train, and there is nowhere to
> build another track. I don't know if trains are

Jacksonville has 3 through tracks including a ~750 ft. long storage track with a 480V standby power drop that is out of service.  There is also a 4th track that was a stub track for mail cars.  The 750 ft. long track is plenty long for the Palmetto - it holds 8 cars and an engine.

> still split and combined at JAX. if the aren't, my
> points are mute. At SAV though there are 2 stub
> tracks that can hold 6-8 coaches, and the north
> one is set up to provide head end power with the
> engine shut down. Just my thoughts. 

The tracks at Savannah are much longer than that.  The northern one used by the Palmetto is 1270 ft. long and the southern track (the Montgomery Track) is 1060 ft. long.

ctillnc Wrote:
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> through-tracks. Jacksonville has only one storage
> track, it's short, it points south, and as far as
> I know it hasn't been used in ages.

The Jacksonville storage track is double ended.  The switch on the north end is just south of the pedestrian crossing to the main platform.

Ok, but if you call that a storage track, then the station has only two through-tracks not three. When I was thinking about a storage track, I meant the stub to the trucking line next door.

There is also a north-facing storage track south of the interlocking south of the station 

Jacksonville has plenty of room to turn the Palmetto. When I lived there in the 90's the Palmetto arrived about 12:30am and departed at 7. Same equipment and power. To extend it back there would require one extra crew (the current train has one crew that makes a turn Florence-Savannnah). Not only was the Palmetto turned there but the Meteor spit into an east and west coast sections. And this was before the additiional track was added to handle the express shipments. But, it does make more sense to extend it to Orlando  with the significant potential traffic in central Florida especially with a Virgin Trains connection.