Passenger Trains > Further Studies of the Princeton Dinky

I don't know if this article was posted on trainorders, but it discusses plans about the future of the Princeton Dinky.
https://planetprinceton.com/2020/01/16/nj-transit-is-conducting-a-princeton-transitway-study-of-the-dinky-train-right-of-way/

As many of us know, the Dinky has been under the spotlight, many of which are for the wrong reasons. About five years ago, the Princeton Station was moved a little east to make way for an arts center at the university. As a result, that has led to many complaints about it being a little bit of a longer walk from the station to Downtown Princeton. It's still not that long of a walk, depending on where in Downtown Princeton you are going.

The Dinky has been using two car Arrow III sets for many years. These MU cars have been having a lot of mechanical issues these days and are about 40 years old. They are slated to be retired, I think, in the next two years. Their replacement will be Multilevel MUs, which, unfortunately will only be able to operate with, I think, a minimum of three cars. That number of cars will be overkill for the Dinky as presently, many of the two car Arrow III sets only have one car open.

With the retirement of the Arrow IIIs approaching in the next few years, NJT has been looking at alternatives for the Princeton Dinky. Many of them have a bus option. Overall, I am not a big fan of replacing the Dinky with a bus as buses often get stuck in traffic and that would cause them to take a lot longer than the shuttle train. If NJT wanted to stick with bus, then BRT would be the answer between the Borough of Princeton's Station and the Junction. I could see buses running on their own roads in place of the Princeton Branch right of way between Princeton and Princeton Jct Stations. The buses could also be extended to Downtown Princeton which they should and that would cut down on as much walking as possible. Presently, even though the walk from Downtown Princeton to Princeton Station may be a little longer, it's still pretty doable, depending on where in Downtown Princeton you are going to.

My other preference, which would be my first for NJT, would be to replace commuter rail on the Princeton Branch with light rail. Maybe NJT could even look into buying a combination light rail/bus vehicle. NJT would convert the right of way to light rail between the Junction and the Borough of Princeton. After Princeton Station is when the vehicle would make a transition from rail to bus. It would continue as a bus into Downtown Princeton.

If they could swing a deal with SEPTA, they could lease two Silverliner V's and rotate them to and from Trenton as needed for maintenance.

If it becomes BRT or LRT and gets extended onto Princeton streets, it will be delayed in traffic and miss train connections at the Junction. Conversion to LRT also means a local shop be constructed, which means more overhead expenses for a tiny operation. It needs to remain heavy rail. Most Dinky passengers simply will not ride a bus. They will instead drive to Princeton Junction. 

They need to replace 42 year old MU's with new or 2nd hand newer MU's. This is an equipment issue that NJT has created for itself, since unlike, LIRR, MN, ConnDOT, and SEPTA, RTD, Metra Electric, and NICTD, they have not bought an MU car in 42 years. NJT plans on buying Multi-Level Power cars bracketed with a MLV car on either side of it, which means a 3 car minimum, and weight problems for the D&R Canal bridge. Even for the Hoboken locals to Summit and Gladstone, they are ridiculous. Those trains do not have capacity issues requiring MLV cars. 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/20/20 13:40 by joemvcnj.

I think what will happen is whatever mode of transportation replaces the Dinky will run a little more frequently. I'm sure that if BRT replaces the Dinky as well as being extended to the heart of Downtown Princeton, the buses won't have to take regular streets for a long time so that will help.

The electric trains that travel to Hoboken from Gladstone and Dover-you can't compare the distance over the Princeton Branch. Three cars will probably be fine during the off peak hours but peak hours may be different. There aren't many Dover to Hoboken trains that use Arrow IIIs. Many of them use Comet V locomotive hauled consists.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/20/20 15:52 by Passfanatic.

As much as I hate to say it given how big a rail supporter I am, it may be time to look at alternatives. If NJT were moving in the direction of MUs, it may be worth keeping around, but they don't seem to other than the MLVIII which given that it's one power car to two [same-size] unpowered cars, it's barely a true MU and more like a weak locomotive that also has passenger seating. I agree withthe concerns about bus service, however, if there could be a dedicated shuttle, even call it the Dinky to commemorate the train if you want, that runs from the current station to PJC, maybe it wouldn't be too bad, and it would open up connections from elsewhere via bus. Buses are used to great effect elsewhere around the world, it's only in this country it seems that they're stigmatized for multiple reasons.

Even though the Dinky is around, there are many people who live in and around Downtown Princeton who drive to Princeton Junction. Whether buses replace the Dinky or not when the Arrow IIIs are retired, people who live in the Borough of Princeton as well as north and west of there will continue to drive to the Junction. If BRT were to ever replace the Dinky, I'm sure that there may be buses that only run between where the current NJT station is and the Junction.

Been a while since I've been out to Princeton, but is the ANY WAY to bringing a light rail train or ROW into the town of Princeton even more? Almost restoring it to what was, but further into town? The main reason, as has been mentioned, is further traffic that's bound to develop in the coming years. Would hate to see the DINKY end. It needed extension, not cutting!

It's a surprise that the university doesn't want the Dinky running on its property. The University should think about benefits. The Princeton area continues to grow and grow. More and more people are moving down that way to save money and still work in NYC. Fortunately, those NJT 3900 series trains help out and during the rush hour, that's when we need whatever replaces the Dinky to run several times an hour.

Would something like the Stadler DMU's used on the NJT River Line work for the Dinky?

Yes, but they are not FRA compliant, so deadhead moves to MMC could be problematic. Platforms would have to be low level.

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joemvcnj Wrote:
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> Yes, but they are not FRA compliant, so deadhead
> moves to MMC could be problematic. Platforms would
> have to be low level.

OK. Thanks!
 

prr60 Wrote:
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> If they could swing a deal with SEPTA, they could
> lease two Silverliner V's and rotate them to and
> from Trenton as needed for maintenance.

That mkes way too much sense to even consider.

Passfanatic Wrote:
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> The Dinky has been using two car Arrow III sets
> for many years. These MU cars have been having a

It used to run with a single EMU car to control costs, but those days have come and gone.

> lot of mechanical issues these days and are about

LOL, meanwhile older SEPTA Arrow IV's soldier on.

> 40 years old. They are slated to be retired, I
> think, in the next two years. Their replacement

The Arrow III's were only gently used from 1977 to 1983 and could be remanufactured to get another 20 years of life out of them.  No reason they can't last to 60 years like the Silverliner II's and III's did and the Silverliner IV's will.

> will be Multilevel MUs, which, unfortunately will
> only be able to operate with, I think, a minimum
> of three cars. That number of cars will be
> overkill for the Dinky as presently, many of the
> two car Arrow III sets only have one car open.

Yes its overkill but ...

> have a bus option. Overall, I am not a big fan of
> replacing the Dinky with a bus as buses often get
> stuck in traffic and that would cause them to take
> a lot longer than the shuttle train. If NJT wanted
> to stick with bus, then BRT would be the answer
> between the Borough of Princeton's Station and the
> Junction. I could see buses running on their own
> roads in place of the Princeton Branch right of
> way between Princeton and Princeton Jct Stations.

And the capital cost to buy buses 4 times (since they only last about 10 years) and to convert the train right of way to a dual carriageway paved road is?  How does this cost compare to simply running a new EMU triplet?  Is anyone doing this sort of analysis?

> The buses could also be extended to Downtown
> Princeton which they should and that would cut
> down on as much walking as possible. Presently,

And get caught in traffic.

> My other preference, which would be my first for
> NJT, would be to replace commuter rail on the
> Princeton Branch with light rail. Maybe NJT could
> even look into buying a combination light rail/bus
> vehicle. NJT would convert the right of way to
> light rail between the Junction and the Borough of
> Princeton. After Princeton Station is when the

What is the capital cost of that?

> vehicle would make a transition from rail to bus.

LOL, what?

> It would continue as a bus into Downtown
> Princeton.

No such vehicle exists.

prr60 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If they could swing a deal with SEPTA, they could
> lease two Silverliner V's and rotate them to and
> from Trenton as needed for maintenance.

As long as we are pipedreaming, lets reverse the connection at Princeton Jct. and run the Dinky as an extension of the SEPTA Trenton Line. Build a new Track 5  for 6.5 miles from Princeton Jct. to Miry Run south of Hamilton Station and tie into existing Track 5 and use it as a eastbound (northbound) track.  Westbound (southbound) would run Track 4, so you need a single crossover at Princeton Jct.. Hold the eastbound SEPTA's now headed to Princeton on Track B or Track A at Trenton for clearance at HAM to cross over the corridor, they are already schedule to do that there anyway.  Westbound SEPTA's would no longer tie up Track 5 at Trenton, so it should decongest movements at the station.  If you need more Dinky's than SEPTA has runs, run them as a Trenton-Princeton Jct.-Princeton shuttle.  This would also restore a Princeton to Amtrak connection opportunity.

If you don't want to through run with SEPTA, build a new platform at Trenton between Track 5 and Track 7 and run the Dinky as a pure Trenton-Princeton Jct.-Princeton Shuttle using the same infrastructure mentioned above.

Or just extend the Riverline north using the Bordentown Secondary and the wye at Hamilton to reach a new track the same way and make it the DInky.  Keep the Hamilton-Princeton Jct. portion single track and re-double track the Princeton Branch to serve as an end of line passing siding.

Another option, extend Track 5 north from Princeton Jct. to the Delco Lead and run Track 5 eastbound, Track 4 westbound with the Dinky running to Jersey Ave. or New Brunswick and turn at Edison Yard.  Or just extend it to Midway and put wire back on the Jamesburg Branch and run the DInky as an extension of a NY Penn-South Amboy-Jamesburg service.

There are so many possibilities if someone had an ounce of creative thinking on this subject and was conducting a real alternative analysis.

NJT got itself into this dilemma by not buying an MU car in 42 years, which predates  NJT itself. NJT has never bought an MU car. For the Dinky, there are these heavy rail possibilities, none of which are that costly:

• Buy 4 M-8's with the next Conn-DOT order, modified with 25 cycle transformers.
• Buy 4 Silverliner VI's when SEPTA gets around to ordering them
• Buy 6 (2 for parts) 2nd hand EXO MR-90 when they are done with them in 3 years. Modify with 25 cycle transformers, PTC, and rebuild the end vestibules for high level platforms.

NJT are spend-thrifts when it comes to buying equipment. They are buying 17 more ALP45DP's at $10 million each whereas they could have bought ordinary diesel locos for less money. They already have 35 of them. They only need the dual-powered capability in 9 of them each weekday. 



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/20 07:10 by joemvcnj.

Or you could buy a couple of the ex-Trinty RDC's that are up in Vermont.  One to operate and thge 2nd as a back up.

NJT is not buying M8s. MNR and CDOT will need as many of the M8s as possible for the New Haven Line and if Amtrak ever lets CDOT use them for Ctrail SLE operations. I think even when CDOT orders brand new equipment for Ctrail operations, the diesel trainsets will be for CTrail SLE. Maybe NJT can use the old AMT MR-90 MUs. They are set up fine for a very short line like the Princeton Dinky. FYI-if the Dinky ever remains commuter rail after the Arrow IIIs are retired and if the line is extended more into the heart of Princeton, I think a tunnel would probably have to be built beneath the university. 

More M-8's are coming to the New Haven line. There is nothing to stop NJT from piggybacking 4 for themselves, except for their attitude (like Delaware owns 4 of the Silverliner V's that run in SEPTA service) with transformer changes. 

There aren't going to be any rail tunnels built in Princeton.

They could also get some sort of battery / diesel hybrid that is structurally FRA compliant.

Princeton University will drive this. It remains to be seen how much they are bamboozled by NJT's fancy bus PPT shows. Remember that Princeton Town government does whatever the University tells them to do, the New Jersey Governor by definition serves ex officio with vote on the University's Trustee Board, and his Transportation Commissioner by definition Chairs the NJT Board. It all spells conflict of interst, double office holding, a University lead monarchy, and collusion.