Passenger Trains > RailwayAge:"Sleeper Service: Let’s Follow Europe’s Lead"

https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/sleeper-service-why-we-should-follow-europes-lead/

A lot of overnight routes in the US would work well for business travel, but Amtrak would need to be both cheaper than a plante ticket + hotel night and then educate the businss travel community about the service.  Hotels and travel are typically budgeted seperately so the high cost of a train-hotel would automatically disqualify it as a travel option even if it saved more combined.

Is there any map (or a chart) of what sleeper service lines are out there, and what sleeper cars are matched to those lines? That's one thing that has caused me confusion in trying to figure out the operations over in Europe......

mbrotzman Wrote:
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> A lot of overnight routes in the US would work
> well for business travel, but Amtrak would need to

If pre-1970 travel times came back for Chiago-Denver, Chicago-NY, etc.  They'd also have to deal with the timezone differential going eastbound somehow. Westbound times are much more competitive.

> be both cheaper than a plante ticket + hotel night

Amtrak would need to be absolutely reliable about the arrival times of the overnight trip, which would need to be before 9am to give time to get to the final destination. And the departure times couldn't creep much before 5 pm.

> and then educate the businss travel community
> about the service.  Hotels and travel are
> typically budgeted seperately so the high cost of
> a train-hotel would automatically disqualify it as
> a travel option even if it saved more combined.

Really? I've never seen this. It's all travel expense usually lumped under a "meetings" line item or a per diem and monthly/biweekly allowance to a long term travellign employee.

What's really needed is for GAO to take the lead and set a government reimbursible price for the service in each city pair, many businesses would then just follow this guidance.

mbrotzman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A lot of overnight routes in the US would work
> well for business travel, but Amtrak would need to
> be both cheaper than a plante ticket + hotel night
> and then educate the businss travel community
> about the service.  Hotels and travel are
> typically budgeted seperately so the high cost of
> a train-hotel would automatically disqualify it as
> a travel option even if it saved more combined.

After Amtrak re-launched overnight service on the NEC between Washington DC and Boston - when Gunn was head of Amtrak - Amtrak did do a nice advertisement of services in the printed timetable. It was geared for the business conscious traveller. I used to have a lot of business trips to the Southeast in the US - particularly Charleston, Savannah, and Atlanta. Coming from the Northeast, travel to/from the Southeast could be done nicely with overnight train travel using sleepers. The Silver Meteor's schedule change in 2005 though did cause some complications and I typically had to fly back north. Same for Atlanta sometimes, heading back north, unless I coupled it with projects in Washington DC that I was doing. 

Not going into it, but there's a LOT that Amtrak could do to increase sleeper car patronage for the conscious minded business traveller, and perhaps a happy medium of increased capacity (add another sleeper) and a lowering of the fare would work in Amtrak advantage. Amtrak would need to advertise and try to appeal better to this market with a targeted approach.  

jp1822 Wrote:
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> and perhaps a happy medium of increased capacity (add another sleeper) and a lowering of the fare would work in Amtrak advantage. 

If you lower the fares too much then you get the riff-raff crowd which scares away the higher-end business traveler crowd.  Similarly, traveling businessmen don't like flying on Spirit Airlines and staying in a Motel 6.   

Amtrak's dependability   and  track conditions (rough riding)   such as Chicago - Denver will not bring back overnight service.

Remember well the overnight Spirit of California on all that rough jointed track.

Europe is dependable and track conditions top notch in most cases.

Overnight business travel is not returing the the rails in the USA despite whatever happens in Euorpe. Maybe WAS to BOS/NYP, but even that is a stretch. 
There was a reason the Larks, 20th Century, Broadway, DZ and so on...were deserted by business travelers, those folks wanted to be home in their beds at night asap after whatever business meeting took them out of town. My suggestions to my traveling wife a few years ago about taking the train overnight to the Bay area was met with laughter. She, and her fellow workers, would rather spend half a day getting home via air, then in a sleeper berth for an entire night bouncing along a track at a breathtaking average speed of 45MPH. Needless to say, I stopped making such suggestions quite awhile ago. "Novelity travel" is no substitute for being home at night. 
The nostalgic wishes of some of my fellow TO members will not change history or turn back the clock for a "do-over". Sorry folks.

Fact is, as virtual reality becomes more commonplace, I can imagine a future where meetings are held "virtually", thus reducing the need to "meet" in person and saving $$$ for many companies. Already happening. Airlines take notice. 

Well, by now we were supposed to be teleconferencing instead of traveling to business meetings. Since business travel remains a strong market, thinking about rail as a component is worthwhile (if not mostly speculative). In the back of my mind is the recollection that in the Pullman days, most (all?) cities with a population of more than 5000 had sleeper service. Don't correct me with the detailed facts...the idea is that at one point in time traveling by Pullman was a possibility for much business travel. I'd like to imagine that city pairs could be identified with late departure, early arrival and corresponding return. Then pick a few with potential traffic and run a test. 

You can suggest some pairs. Chicago to Minneapolis? I recall riding GTW between Chicago and Detroit. LA and Sacramento? The east coast should have a critical mass. Keep thinking! I'd like to see city pairs identified that could be competitive with air/hotel costs. Then (sorry!) put it all in the currently acceptable vocabulary of environmental impact, city pair contract rates, carbon reduction, equity, access and so on. Hint: The terms do not include profit, loss or fare box recovery. (The opponents use those terms.)

mundo Wrote:
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 Remember well the overnight Spirit of California
> on all that rough jointed track.

Rough track maybe, but loading's were quite good. Sometimes I would have to "trolley car" tickets at the coach door it was so busy. 

The 1st thing they did right....naming it Night-Jet

ATSF3751 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There was a reason the Larks, 20th Century,
> Broadway, DZ and so on...were deserted by business
> travelers, those folks wanted to be home in their
> beds at night asap after whatever business meeting
> took them out of town. My suggestions to my

This is definitely true about the after meeting travel plans - people want to fly home the same evening/night if possible.  That can often get you home very late though.  For example:

Leave Chicago office 4:30 pm
Arrive Airport 5:30 pm
Depart 7:00 pm
Arrive East Coast 10:30 pm (2.5 hours + 1 hour time change)
Home by 11:30 pm

Any delays and this gets worse.

However, because of unreliability and people not wanting to get up at 3 am to fly, it has become more popular to fly in the night before and spend a single night in a hotel whenever possible for a morning meeting.  This has also tended to now stretch towards flying in in the afternoon and blowing a half day of work, having a work get together dinner before the meeting the next day, and then having a meeting.

> traveling wife a few years ago about taking the
> train overnight to the Bay area was met with
> laughter. She, and her fellow workers, would
> rather spend half a day getting home via air, then
> in a sleeper berth for an entire night bouncing
> along a track at a breathtaking average speed of
> 45MPH. Needless to say, I stopped making such
> suggestions quite awhile ago. "Novelity travel" is
> no substitute for being home at night. 
> The nostalgic wishes of some of my fellow TO
> members will not change history or turn back the
> clock for a "do-over". Sorry folks.

People said the same thing about high speed rail, so I am not going to necessarily discount this. With the right speed and timing, a sleeper train allows for a late departure, a full night's sleep, and a full day of productive activity in the destination.  Imagine a premium train that can average 70 mph from the east coast to Chicago.  This really shouldn't be that big a deal if it avoids stops in the middle of the night.  Itinerearies:

Train:
Depart East Coast ~9 pm
Arrive Chicago ~8 am
Arrive office 8:30 am
~840 miles, 70 mph = 12 hours - 1 hour time change

Fly in afternoon:
Depart office at 2 pm
Arrive airport at 3 pm
Depart 4:30 pm
Arrive Chicago 6 pm = ~2.5 hours - 1 hour time change
Arrive hotel ~7 pm

Fly in evening:
Depart office at 5 pm
Arrive airport at 6 pm
Depart 7:30 pm
Arrive Chicago 9 pm = ~2.5 hours - 1 hour time change
Arrive hotel 9:30 pm

Fly in early morning:
Wake up 3 am
Depart home at 4 am
Arrive airport at 4:30 am
Depart 6:00 am
Arrive Chicago 7:30 am = ~2.5 hours - 1 hour time change
Arrive office 8:30 am

There is certainly a subset of people who would chose the train if this was available.

> Fact is, as virtual reality becomes more
> commonplace, I can imagine a future where meetings
> are held "virtually", thus reducing the need to
> "meet" in person and saving $$$ for many
> companies. Already happening. Airlines take
> notice. 

Critical meetings will always be held face to face. Technology is not a substitute.  People have been trying for over a decade to eliminate key in person meetings - it doesn't work and there has been a lot of push back on it.  For brief one-hour calls, Skype is fine.  For multi-person interactive meetings, there is no substitute for a boardroom or conference room in person.

2 issues stand out with me:

1. RELIABLE ridership projections 

2. RELIABLE service (minimal delays due to capacity issues or host railroad).

if word gets out that the service is not reliable due to consistent delays, the service will be doomed as far as overnight business passengers are concerned..........

66

Completely different from what Anderson is doing. Reduce supply and raise rates to a point most repeat riders look elsewhere. Anderson sees it all as experimental and is going after one time riders unfortunately. It appears he isn't going for repeat long term customers. Horrible and incompetent at best.

> Fact is, as virtual reality becomes more
> commonplace, I can imagine a future where meetings
> are held "virtually", thus reducing the need to
> "meet" in person and saving $$$ for many
> companies. Already happening. Airlines take
> notice. 


It's impossible to get to know colleagues and clients over drinks or dinner via teleconferencing and virtual reality.

Face-to-face contact, other than via telecommunications media,  will remain,a critical component of American business practices.

Art House

aehouse Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Fact is, as virtual reality becomes more
> > commonplace, I can imagine a future where
> meetings
> > are held "virtually", thus reducing the need to
> > "meet" in person and saving $$$ for many
> > companies. Already happening. Airlines take
> > notice. 
>
>
> It's impossible to get to know colleagues and
> clients over drinks or dinner via teleconferencing
> and virtual reality.
>
> Face-to-face contact, other than via
> telecommunications media,  will remain,a critical
> component of American business practices.
>
> Art House

Technology will eventually remove the need for "face to face". Sure, some will still want the in person meetings, but they will eventually be in the minority. 
A new generation of sales staff and executives who grew up on technology will lead the way. 
 

i agree 3751.  it seems to me that face to face meetings will decrease as time goes on with the advances of technology subsequently decreasing costs.........

66

A few things about European overnight sleeping car trains:

1. The trains are relatively slow--but they are "fast enough" to serve overnight markets that aren't that far apart.
2. They carry a lot of extremely budget-minded travelers in "steerage." Backpackers, students, etc.
3. On-board dining options are limited, and there's rarely a full-service dining car. 
4. In many cases en-route switching allows multiple branching destinations. This requires good timekeeping and operational discipline.
5. Some of them hemorrhage cash. Example: the Caledonian Sleeper, which is largely a vanity project of Scotland's government.

Paul Wilson
Arlington, VA

abyler Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ATSF3751 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > There was a reason the Larks, 20th Century,
> > Broadway, DZ and so on...were deserted by
> business
> > travelers, those folks wanted to be home in
> their
> > beds at night asap after whatever business
> meeting
> > took them out of town. My suggestions to my
>
> This is definitely true about the after meeting
> travel plans - people want to fly home the same
> evening/night if possible.  That can often get
> you home very late though.  For example:
>
> Leave Chicago office 4:30 pm
> Arrive Airport 5:30 pm
> Depart 7:00 pm
> Arrive East Coast 10:30 pm (2.5 hours + 1 hour
> time change)
> Home by 11:30 pm
>
> Any delays and this gets worse.
>
> However, because of unreliability and people not
> wanting to get up at 3 am to fly, it has become
> more popular to fly in the night before and spend
> a single night in a hotel whenever possible for a
> morning meeting.  This has also tended to now
> stretch towards flying in in the afternoon and
> blowing a half day of work, having a work get
> together dinner before the meeting the next day,
> and then having a meeting.
>
> > traveling wife a few years ago about taking the
> > train overnight to the Bay area was met with
> > laughter. She, and her fellow workers, would
> > rather spend half a day getting home via air,
> then
> > in a sleeper berth for an entire night bouncing
> > along a track at a breathtaking average speed
> of
> > 45MPH. Needless to say, I stopped making such
> > suggestions quite awhile ago. "Novelity travel"
> is
> > no substitute for being home at night. 
> > The nostalgic wishes of some of my fellow TO
> > members will not change history or turn back
> the
> > clock for a "do-over". Sorry folks.
>
> People said the same thing about high speed rail,
> so I am not going to necessarily discount this.
> With the right speed and timing, a sleeper train
> allows for a late departure, a full night's sleep,
> and a full day of productive activity in the
> destination.  Imagine a premium train that can
> average 70 mph from the east coast to Chicago. 
> This really shouldn't be that big a deal if it
> avoids stops in the middle of the night. 
> Itinerearies:
>
> Train:
> Depart East Coast ~9 pm
> Arrive Chicago ~8 am
> Arrive office 8:30 am
> ~840 miles, 70 mph = 12 hours - 1 hour time
> change
>
> Fly in afternoon:
> Depart office at 2 pm
> Arrive airport at 3 pm
> Depart 4:30 pm
> Arrive Chicago 6 pm = ~2.5 hours - 1 hour time
> change
> Arrive hotel ~7 pm
>
> Fly in evening:
> Depart office at 5 pm
> Arrive airport at 6 pm
> Depart 7:30 pm
> Arrive Chicago 9 pm = ~2.5 hours - 1 hour time
> change
> Arrive hotel 9:30 pm
>
> Fly in early morning:
> Wake up 3 am
> Depart home at 4 am
> Arrive airport at 4:30 am
> Depart 6:00 am
> Arrive Chicago 7:30 am = ~2.5 hours - 1 hour time
> change
> Arrive office 8:30 am
>
> There is certainly a subset of people who would
> chose the train if this was available.
>
> > Fact is, as virtual reality becomes more
> > commonplace, I can imagine a future where
> meetings
> > are held "virtually", thus reducing the need to
> > "meet" in person and saving $$$ for many
> > companies. Already happening. Airlines take
> > notice. 
>
> Critical meetings will always be held face to
> face. Technology is not a substitute.  People
> have been trying for over a decade to eliminate
> key in person meetings - it doesn't work and there
> has been a lot of push back on it.  For brief
> one-hour calls, Skype is fine.  For multi-person
> interactive meetings, there is no substitute for a
> boardroom or conference room in person.

Sure, but those situations will be fewer and fewer as companies look to be more competative. Reducing costs is primary. Eliminating or reducing travel expenses is a vital part.
My wife is with a tech start up, and the younger set that is part of this company is more open to new technologies that will reduce their need for travel. Work from home is way more commonplace, meeting with clients over the phone and teleconferencing is commonplace as well and increasing given our remote location.
My wife was a corporate travel manager for a major Tech company some years back and saw the future as very embracing of these new technologies. Seems she was right, and me?....I will be proven wrong as I used to say "why not overnight trains"? It's a nice thought, but it will never happen, at least at any large scale. 

goneon66 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 2 issues stand out with me:
>
> 1. RELIABLE ridership projections 
>
> 2. RELIABLE service (minimal delays due to
> capacity issues or host railroad).

...and inability to do what it takes to run reliable service even when capacity is not a problem.

>
> if word gets out that the service is not reliable
> due to consistent delays, the service will be
> doomed as far as overnight business passengers are
> concerned..........
>

Reverse the two points. Service must be reliable before ridership is reliable.

TAW