Passenger Trains > Question about the >30mph for Amtrak towards Joliet from Chicago

When the Chicago - St. Louis boondoggle is brought up there have been some insightful comments about CN's operation of the Joliet Sub from Chicago to Joliet, and how it slows down service. I've seen mention of the major crossings all now being controlled by other railroads, CN being sluggish to plan for the passenger trains to get through, locals taking up the main west of Glenn Yard, and other things. I got to wondering why, on top of all of that, the speeds seems to be slow on the Chicago portion. I found an older (maybe 2000's timetable) and it says that the speed from what is now Cermak (MP 2.9, where there is a 10mph, now single tracked junction from Amtrak) to the Bridgeport bridge at MP 3.5 is 30mph for passenger. At the bridge it is listed as 25mph. Then, MP 3.5 to MP 7 is 30mph. Finally, all the way out at MP 7, the speed suddenly jumps to 79mph. Why is that long stretch at max 30mph? Do the diamonds have speed restrictions?

To show some of the track in question -
1. Drone photo of the new single track Cermak interlocking, with a Metra Heritage Corridor train headed off of Amtak's rails at 21st St. The Freeport Sub is also being single tracked past here.
2. Amtrak 301 plodding along past the Orange line platform at Halsted
3. The rear of 301, with the rear of CN M337 in the far distance diverging onto the Freeport Sub, and Amtrak 300 holding west of Bridgeport.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/26/20 06:59 by inCHI.

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CN could not care less about Amtrak delays

Posted from iPhone

Well, sure, years of evidence suggests that. I'm just wondering if there is a reason those 5 miles are 30mph, like signalling, the diamonds, etc.

Right now, the 7 hour late Texas Eagle was juuuuust about to get into Chicago, but instead IHB lined two trains across the diamond at CP Canal. That added 15 minutes of delay. Next up, can it get through Corwith and Brighton Park uninjured?

I was at Argo a few years ago and Amtrak trains went thru that area around 30 or 40 mph.  At that time the tracks were still jointed rail.  Maybe they still are at the areas you mention.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/25/20 19:30 by calumet.

MEKoch Wrote:
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> CN could not care less about Amtrak delays

I am guessing you don't realize that CN doesn't control these interlockers?

inCHI Wrote:
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> To show some of the track in question - 1. Drone photo of the new single track Cermak interlocking, with a Metra Southwest Service train
> leaving Amtak. The Freeport Sub is also being single tracked past here.

Nce photo showing the extremely inflexible layout of the interlocking (no parallel moves possible).  I think that's a Metra Heritage Corridor train, though.  A Southwest Service train would continue south from Alton Jct. in the background, pass under the CTA Orange Line, and then diverge at some point from the ex-PRR to the ex-C&WI alignment.  This used to happen just south of 21st St. but I think it takes place further south now.

The area where the train is shown used to have six tracks, which North to South were:  Double-track GM&O (Alton); Double-track IC (Iowa Division); Double-track Santa Fe (Orange Line uses this track space today).  Speeds were never particularly fast because of the curves between 21st St. interlocking and Bridgeport drawbridge.

That first photo looks like something from a model railroad.

SP4360 Wrote:
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> That first photo looks like something from a model
> railroad.

I think we (MRRs) would plan better than that.

SP4360 Wrote:
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> That first photo looks like something from a model
> railroad.


It sure does. What is the track in the pavement on the left?

Duna Wrote:
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> It sure does. What is the track in the pavement on
> the left?

That is an old industry spur that dropped down from the elevation at Halsted St. and continued across 22nd/Cermak. I found a satellite image from 2002 where it was still in use, with cars spotted at warehouses on both sides of Cermak (just to the left of this view.) In 2003 the track was realigned into a new streetscape, which is what is visible in this photo. As that happened, one of those two customers was already gone. 2005 is the last image that I see cars spotted at the industry across Cermak. So that new track in pavement looks like it was used for just a few years... much like other places I can think of where they redid street track (Goose Island.)

Even back in the 1950’s the speed between 21st St. and Corwith was pretty much the same
as it is today. 

In 1951 it was 40 mph with speed restrictions of 25 mph around the Halsted St. 
curves; 20 mph through the Bridgeport interlocking; statutory stop at Brighton Park; and 40 mph 
through Corwith interlocking.  For northbound trains the race was over once Corwith was passed b
because of the stop at Brighton Park and the restrictions at Bridgeport and Halsted St. . The 40 mph
may have begun at Corwith so the cowboys would not be charging into BrightonPark at 75 mph. 

The parallel ATSF was 30 mph between 21st St. and Bridgeport with a 20 mph through Bridgeport interlocking. 

South of Argo the railroad is maintained for a steady 40 mph freight operation. Passenger trains can run
79 on the straight but curves are now more maintained for the freight trains than passenger trains. 
The 60 mph through Lemont is an example. Another point to remember is that in the golden days 
the GM&O was a current of traffic operation.  Not CTC. The locals cleared the time of the passenger trains. 
Since it has been CTC the locals hold the main and the passenger trains zig zag through 40 mph ccrossovers
to get around the locals. There are now so many universal power crossover locations between Argo and Joliet  the GM&O
looks like the BN East End with two tracks. Argo, Justice,Lambert, Flagstone, Romeoville, Statevillle.......... 

All the interlockings south of Corwith on the ex-GM&O are controlled by other railroads and always have been. 

A CN cap-con project gave control of Corwith away to the BNSF. The CN towerman at Corwith did much more
than operate the interlocking.  He effectively “dispatched” the CN out to Argo.  He kept tabs on the passenger
trains and kept the cross road dispatchers up to date on passenger train operation. The big difference in the 
control of the interlockings is previous local control vs. current far-off Dispatcher control. The far-off train dispatchers
now in control have much more on their plate than what goes through the interlockings at Brighton Park, Corwith,
Lemoyne and Argo. 

Brighton Park control went from a man at the crossing to the NS CJ dispatcher (who I believe was at least located
in Chicago) to the NS Chicago West DS in Atlanta who has a tiger by the tale dispatching the ex-NYC main line to Porter. 
Interlocking Brighton Park was a pre CREATE project.  One of the many projected to untangle Chicago. A couple years
ago I made a St. Louis turn. Got stopped southbound at Brighton Park for a coal train on the NS.
Money well spent on the interlocking. Full disclosure obligates me to mention that we also were
delayed at the south end of the CUS station track and where we entered the CN at Cermak. 

The above mentioned BNSF DS controlling Corwith has a territory that extends west of Joliet. 

The control of Lemoyne has actually stayed the same and probably improved over the last few decades. 
Lemoyne has been remote controlled from the BRC DS office since probably the 1960’s. 
The BRC spit their dispatcher desks about 20 years ago so the work load is at a manageable level to
permit some concentration on the CN traffic through Lemoyne. 

Argo once controlled by an operator in the tower is now run by the IHB DS who also controls the IHB between
Bensenville and Blue Island. 

And let us not forget the CN DS who is in overall control.  My info is a little outdated so may not
be entirely correct but in my time CN Desk 1 controlled from Joliett through downtown to a point
south of Markham.  On weekends and perhaps nights dispatching of the Iowa line to Council Bluffs was added. 

COMMUNICATIONS IS THE KEY  !!!! 

Unlike their towerman predecessors all the above train dispatchers
have more to do than wait for the call from the CN that the northbound Amtrak is out of Joliet or the
southbound is out of CUS.  They get tied up issuing track and time to MW, verifying DOB’s and a hundred
other time consuming operations on the radio and phone. 

The biggest obstacle to train dispatching in Chicago is getting the other DS to answer the phone. 
While you are on the phone waiting for the next DS to answer, another DS is waiting for you to answer him. 
My most common dreams (nightmares) of train dispatching after being retired 5+ years revolve around
someone not answering the phone. 

Running time for a northbound Amtrak from Joliet to Argo is only around 20”.  If the CN DS does not get right
on it and notify the IHB DS there will be a delay at Argo if cross traffic is close.  Once the IHB is notified, the
BRC, BNSF and NS dispatchers must be notified.

I once asked a CN DS where No. 22 was. He did not know (no communication with
the connecting UP DS). I asked the CN DS for the phone number he calls to find
out where northbound Amtraks are on the UP. Assuming he gave me the UP
DS number I was surprised to find it was the number to talk to Amtrak Julie. 

The railroads have crippled themselves with their train dispatching.  Apparently nobody in a position of
responsibility is able to articulate the thought.  High speed rail dreamers and politicians think the solution
to railroad operating incompetence is to rob the taxpayersand build overpasses. 

The “men who made love to the railroads” have destroyed operation in the ChicagoTerminal.  
By the way what is out stock price today?? 

1951 GM&O employee timetable.
[color=#1155cc]https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?11,4234332,4234345#msg-4234345[/color] 

1958 ATSF employee timetable
https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?11,4292139,4292604#msg-4292604 



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/26/20 10:45 by Englewood.

Englewood, thank you for that exceptional answer. That certainly explains a lot! The speed makes sense now. I can see how actually having the communication to make sure all the diamonds are clear is what really impacts the time. Yesterday I was down in the area and saw L537 going back to Glenn through Brighton Park. Later I was idly watching ACTS has a 7 hour late 22 came north. It had been following close behind 304 all the way from at least Springfield. 304 got through Argo untouched, but 22, just 15-20 minutes behind, faced to IHB lined either way across the diamond and got stuck waiting for 15 minutes.

Monitoring the CN Joliet Sub ATCS this afternoon.
No. 21 departed CUS on time.  Got stabbed at Argo (MP 13) by a northbound on the IHB.
Amtrak tracker showed it at 0 mph at 216pm.

Something stopped on / holding the main on CN MT 2 between Lambert (MP 22) and
Flagstone (MP 260).  No. 22 slowed down or might have even stopped at Flagstone
until No. 21 passed then No. 22 crossed over to MT 1.

No. 21 departed Joliet 244 pm: 4 minutes late.


 

Funny that you mention that, because I just started to look at ACTS about 10 minutes ago, and had missed 21 getting stopped at Argo. Instead now it's 22 stopped at Argo for a move that has been lined up that long or longer. Meanwhile, a freight (likely L537) is lined through the single track at Cermak onto Main 2. If 22 wasn't sitting at Argo, it would already be at Cermak. Even still, there is the exciting question - will the IHB delay 22 so long that the CN freight clears, or will 22 moving soon and also get the honor of also sitting at Cermak waiting for a long 10mph freight to clear a now single tracked interlocking?

inCHI Wrote:
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> Funny that you mention that, because I just
> started to look at ACTS about 10 minutes ago, and
> had missed 21 getting stopped at Argo. Instead now
> it's 22 stopped at Argo for a move that has been
> lined up that long or longer.

The IHB had that northbound lined up for a long time.
No. 22 arrived Argo 254pm. IHB train started through at
257pm.   No. 22 on the move at Argo at 307pm.   10" delay
for absolutely nothing.  No. 22 was sitting at Argo before
the IHB was there.  

When working an actual tower job there was no worse feeling 
than after having lined up a freight train (that should have cleared)
a passenger train arrives with the headlight on bright, whistling o o o o
repeatedly.  Pretty soon the phone would ring and a TM would be asking
what you were doing, thinking of, etc.  You would only have that happen
once or twice when wet behind the ears.  I doubt whether anyone on Amtrak
even calls the IHB Chief to ask what was happening.

Looking at the IHB ATCS that NB was only heading into the slow speed 
connection to the ATSF at McCook anyway.  I noticed that after the northbound
IHB and Amtrak No. 22 cleared the DS lined up Argo for a SB that could not
get by McCook until the previous NB had cleared McCook.  In the Chicago 
Terminal you can't be lining up for trains that can't even get to the signal.

Meanwhile, a freight
> (likely L537) is lined through the single track at
> Cermak onto Main 2. If 22 wasn't sitting at Argo,
> it would already be at Cermak. Even still, there
> is the exciting question - will the IHB delay 22
> so long that the CN freight clears, or will 22
> moving soon and also get the honor of also sitting
> at Cermak waiting for a long 10mph freight to
> clear a now single tracked interlocking

If you were watching earlier you would have seen at 230pm the CN DS originally 
had the freight lined up from the single main to Main 1 at Cermak and back
to Main 2 at Bridgeport.  At 248pm the DS knocked the signal down and lined
the freight from the single main to Main 2 at Cermak avoiding what would have 
been a certain delay at Bridgeport.

What is interesting to me is that a railfan like yourself can sit at home and see what
is wrong but the Class Ones send through groups like the so-called by Trains mag
"League of Extraordinary Gentlemen" and things never change.

While No. 22 was sitting at Argo for 13" think of the effect on the BRC at Lemoyne, 
the BNSF at Corwith and NS at Brighton Park.  They could be holding trains
(which could have cleared the delayed No. 22) for a train sitting still at Argo. 
In Chicago you can't dispatch like you are the only railroad in town.  

That is enough ATCS watching for me before PDTS (post dispatching traumatic
stress) sets in.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/26/20 16:45 by Englewood.

Going more than 40 mph through a fixed diamond is getting into questionable territory. I don't think there's anywhere someone runs at more than 60 mph over a fixed diamond.

Can anybody explain why CN runs the line between Joliet and Bridgeport to begin with?  It doesn't connect with the EJE, just sort of dead-ends in Joliet where it turns into UP.  I know the history, Alton -> GMO/IC -> CN, but just not the logic of maintaining a mainline to nowhere that would seem to have a better home with Union Pacific.

I also found this photo gallery showing the entire line from the rear of a westbound Texas Eagle.

https://www.redoveryellow.com/position-light/19-03-27b_HERITAGE_CORRIDOR/-Thumbnails.html



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/20 04:15 by mbrotzman.

mbrotzman Wrote:
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> Can anybody explain why CN runs the line between
> Joliet and Bridgeport to begin with?  It doesn't
> connect with the EJE, just sort of dead-ends in
> Joliet where it turns into UP.  I know the
> history, Alton -> GMO/IC -> CN, but just not the
> logic of maintaining a mainline to nowhere that
> would seem to have a better home with Union
> Pacific.

The answer is the same as the often posed "why does CSXT operate the old
Rock Island to Utica?".  Lots of on-line business!!!!!   Multiple refineries, Argo grain, etc.

abyler Wrote:
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> Going more than 40 mph through a fixed diamond is
> getting into questionable territory. I don't think
> there's anywhere someone runs at more than 60 mph
> over a fixed diamond.

I am sure over 40 mph is questionable territory in today's MW world.
Diamonds require work and money to be maintained in proper condition.

Milwaukee Road ran 90mph over the diamond at Rondout with 
steam.   That was when railroads were a "passenger train
environment". 

Englewood Wrote:
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> That is enough ATCS watching for me before PDTS
> (post dispatching traumatic
> stress) sets in.

Understandable. If that is the afflication, I guess you would need really just need to avoid pulling it up for this line, because this morning there is already another example.

For today's edition: 303 is leaving Union Station at 925am, 300 has left Joliet. After 9am, there is a train on the CN Chicago Sub that gets the light across 16th, and gets lined up onto Main to at Bridgeport. To my surprise, it turns out it is a local with two engines and 5 cars. Great! It isn't M337, with 10,000 ft. of train, which often comes through at this time. So everything should go smoothly.

And yet... the choice is made to line the local down main 2 all the way to Brighton Park. Once it clears Cermak, 303 is lined down main 1 to Argo or so. Meanwhile, 300 is already near Corwith. So moments later, it comes to a stop at the crossovers at Rockwell, because a local that's no longer than the passenger trains was plopped right in front of it. With 300 holding, and 303 headed towards Brighton Park, then NS sends traffic across Brighton Park and holds 300, 303, and the local. Once that clears, 303 heads west on Main 1, and finally after it clears Rockwell, 300 crosses over and is on its way. Of course, by the time 303 gets to Argo, IHB has lined something across. 300 was estimated as 6 minutes early before of this, now its 10 minutes late. 303 has now arrived at Summit 15 minutes late.

Bridgeport has that running track/siding that could have taken the local before either 300 or 303 was coming through, but...nope.

> What is interesting to me is that a railfan like
> yourself can sit at home and see what
> is wrong but the Class Ones send through groups
> like the so-called by Trains mag
> "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen" and things
> never change.

The points you made about the higher level decisions to combine desks and territorys, hand away control of Corwith, and make the whole route a fragment of responsibility any parties involved seems to also constrain what whoever is working it can even do. I can't imagine how stressful that job must be.
 

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