Passenger Trains > PTC & Scheduled Operations

Metra is proposing a drastic schedule change for the Electric line. Basically the suburban mainline stations will be divided into two zones instead of three. The middle zone will be divided amongst a northern and southern zone which will overlap at Homewood. This comes up during rush hours when trains run express to or from those zones.

They say PTC forces them to reduce the number of trains in and out of Millennium.

So what is it about PTC that causes this? Isn’t the schedule programmed in and they just select it?

Posted from iPhone

filmteknik Wrote:
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> They say PTC forces them to reduce the number of
> trains in and out of Millennium.
>
> So what is it about PTC that causes this? Isn’t
> the schedule programmed in and they just select
> it?

They are claiming it prevents them from turning trains at the initial terminal as fast because of tests.  Apparently they schedule a lot of 10 minute turns now.

It is ultimately because METRA chose to install the freight version of PTC on its isolated electric line instead of ACSES, the cab signal and transponder system used on northeast passenger systems.  This is despite the South Shore Line having installed, but not activated an ACSES compatible cab signal system because it had to go along with METRA's decision.  ACSES requires little or no "setup" because data is transmitted through transponders placed at each signal location as opposed to being downloaded through some "who know how old" data radio system before the start of each trip.  There is also a GPS component which may also perform like an old Garmin hand-helf unit than a modern smart phone.  Anyone who has spent 5 minutes with their GPS pressed against a Superliner window trying to get it to sync knows what I am talking about.

 

May we assume this was the cheaper option? Could it be upgraded to the better system?

Posted from iPhone

filmteknik Wrote:
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> May we assume this was the cheaper option? Could
> it be upgraded to the better system?

METRA as gone with the "freight version" since the vast majority of their trains operate on BNSF and UP, which are obviously "freight railroads". Just my opinion but, I really would not see any reason for METRA to use that Amtrak system, as none of METRA commuter trains operate over 79MPH.

Jack, if the other poster is correct not disrupting operations is ample reason to use the other system. They should be able to use station tracks as fast as they can unload / reload, and move equipment in and out.

This sounds like there is a lot of screwing around with PTC each trip before you can operate a train. That is ridiculous in an age when I can broadcast to the world with something I can hold in my hand. Get on, select the train number you will be operating and go. Or something like that.

Posted from iPhone

filmteknik Wrote:
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> Jack, if the other poster is correct not
> disrupting operations is ample reason to use the
> other system. They should be able to use station
> tracks as fast as they can unload / reload, and
> move equipment in and out.
>
> This sounds like there is a lot of screwing around
> with PTC each trip before you can operate a train.
> That is ridiculous in an age when I can broadcast
> to the world with something I can hold in my hand.
> Get on, select the train number you will be
> operating and go. Or something like that.

You apparently don't know about all the "ins and outs" of PTC, and how it negatively effects rail commuter operations in the Chicago area. Remember that, upon full implementation on BNSF about a year ago, the entire schedule had to be changed. Under PTC, the process of "flipping" the commuter trains takes a LOT longer, thus the schedule changes. I'd be willing to bet that even that fancy Amtrak system used on the Northeast Corridor, would not allow "10 min. flips" of commuter trains, as was done on the BNSF and C&NW lines.

The name of the dead horse I’ve been beating for the last 10 years is “PTC; the billion dollar solution to a million dollar problem” and BTW it doesn’t work that well.

Posted from iPhone

Jack, you're basically just restating the issue:  That there cannot be a fast flip.  I do not know the details which makes me just ignorant enough to ask "why?"  What are they doing?  What happens?  Does something have to be done manually?  If so WHY????  At the technological level of modern society it seems preposterous.  Yes, I know they had to make changes on BNSF.  Same issue applies there.  Porn went from 12-15 min to view a single still image to live streaming video in HD.  Tell me we cannot implement a safety system without reducing station usage.  I guess NICTD will never be able to add that new line.

This is all a bit of fake news. BNSF and Metra each chose to scapegoat PTC as means to enact schedule changes that they wanted for other reasons. Search the headlines for what changes UP - the largest Metra service provider - said were required account PTC.

Posted from iPhone

filmteknik Wrote:
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> Jack, you're basically just restating the issue: 
> That there cannot be a fast flip.  I do not know
> the details which makes me just ignorant enough to
> ask "why?"  What are they doing?  What
> happens?  Does something have to be done
> manually?  If so WHY????  At the technological
> level of modern society it seems preposterous. 
> Yes, I know they had to make changes on BNSF. 
> Same issue applies there.  Porn went from 12-15
> min to view a single still image to live streaming
> video in HD.  Tell me we cannot implement a
> safety system without reducing station usage.  I
> guess NICTD will never be able to add that new
> line.

It all comes down to the fact that an engineer has to manually enter the information in the computer for each turn. Some are pretty quick at it and others aren't.

filmteknik Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Jack, you're basically just restating the issue: 
> That there cannot be a fast flip.  I do not know
> the details which makes me just ignorant enough to
> ask "why?"  What are they doing?  What
> happens?  Does something have to be done
> manually?  If so WHY????  At the technological
> level of modern society it seems preposterous. 
> Yes, I know they had to make changes on BNSF. 
> Same issue applies there. 

I had to deal with the same thing timetabling Sounder service. Turns went from 10 minutes to 20 minutes because of PTC data download time. The PTC system the "freight railroads" use requires downloading the physical characteristics of the line, the slows, the schedule, and other information into the PTC computer in the cab at the beginning of a trip. Nobody thought to make it possible to set up multiple connected trips in one download. Change directions, start over.

TAW

Utterly ridiculous. How about enter a train number that calls up all that data that only changes with schedule changes or the occasional extra and you’re good to go!

Posted from iPhone

TractiveEffort, what happened on UP?

HotWater Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> filmteknik Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > May we assume this was the cheaper option?
> Could
> > it be upgraded to the better system?
>
> METRA as gone with the "freight version" since the
> vast majority of their trains operate on BNSF and
> UP, which are obviously "freight railroads". Just
> my opinion but, I really would not see any reason
> for METRA to use that Amtrak system, as none of
> METRA commuter trains operate over 79MPH.

METRA Electric is practically an isolated system and could have used whichever PTC system it wanted.  METRA the organization likely felt a common vendor would be easier to manage and probably didn't want to install cab signals on the Electric Lines.  The freight method of PTC was intended to minimize signal system changes, although in practice they really didn't.

filmteknik Wrote:
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> TractiveEffort, what happened on UP?

Nothing.  You will find no headlines about significant schedule overhaul on UP Metra service blamed on PTC.  UP was not sitting on any latent desires to restructure its Metra schedule which it could then blame on PTC.  There are indeed some tight turns and a very few micro-adjustments, but no canceled trains.

Wsan't there some tweaking of the BNSF Aurora line schedules a couple of years ago due to PTC and too-tight relays in CUS ? 

Yes, but it has been asserted (scroll up) that they were using PTC implementation as an excuse.

filmteknik Wrote:
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> Yes, but it has been asserted (scroll up) that
> they were using PTC implementation as an excuse.

Well, in my opinion it was/is a valid "excuse" on the BNSF line. Having "inside information" from more than one source, the frequency of trains in the major "rush periods" had to be adjusted because the Engineer simply could NOT change ends quickly enough under PTC, in order to "flip the train set".

HotWater Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> filmteknik Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Yes, but it has been asserted (scroll up) that
> > they were using PTC implementation as an
> excuse.
>
> Well, in my opinion it was/is a valid "excuse" on
> the BNSF line. Having "inside information" from
> more than one source, the frequency of trains in
> the major "rush periods" had to be adjusted
> because the Engineer simply could NOT change ends
> quickly enough under PTC, in order to "flip the
> train set".

Both situations could be true.