Passenger Trains > More about Amtrak's non-refundable ticket rules

Roger Harris speaks with the Washington Post about the impact and intent of Amtrak's new rules on refundable tickets. "Use it or lose it" for the lowest priced ticket classes

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/amtrak-is-making-saver-tickets-nonrefundable-embracing-airlines-like-fare-policy/2020/02/23/34ac2700-4e9a-11ea-bf44-f5043eb3918a_story.html

It will likely decrease ridership. With Saver fares being use it or lose it for any change, there will be zero incentive to cancel such reservations. They will simply be no-shows and empty seats, which is likely the intent against those who book months in advance, and will not even be allowed to shift their trip by a day if they needed to.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/20 12:10 by joemvcnj.

I wish Anderson would realize that Amtrak has a different marketing position than airlines. 

Of course, if one only has a hammer everything looks like a nail. 

I just flew to Boston for the first time via my airline of choice, Southwest.  The ticket was cheaper than Amtrak and now has a better refund policy than Amtrak.  Just sayin'

I returned via an AX because I had a BOGO coupon and rode across from a lady who had purchased a second AX ticket so she could put her feet up (train wasn't even close to sold out).  I am getting the feeling that Amtrak sees itself as primarily a luxury product and to the extent some occasional low income person might ride with a non-refundable sale ticket or loose their money on a non-refuldable sale ticket isn' really a big deal to them. The truth is that the only people who can afford to live in an NEC city where casual Amtrak use is possible are high income individuals who can pay 2x or 3x what the same thing used to cost 5-10 years ago.

In other news MARC now offers a dedicated bus connection with SEPTA between Perryville and Newark.  Traveling WAS to PHL that way will take 5 hours, but it's looking like an awfully good deal. *shrug emoji*

No different than the airlines lowest fares. If you aren't sure of your travel plans, buy a higher fare class that is flexible or can be camceled. So what's the problem?

mbrotzman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> In other news MARC now offers a dedicated bus
> connection with SEPTA between Perryville and
> Newark.  Traveling WAS to PHL that way will take
> 5 hours, but it's looking like an awfully good
> deal. *shrug emoji*

Cecil County Transit, funded by the state. Very limited schedule, weekdays only.

 

Paul Wilson
Arlington, VA



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/20 12:46 by Dcmcrider.

---

Wait! What’s the favor of the day today?

How about dumping the senior discount on sleepers and leaving this alone?

Posted from iPhone

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It will likely decrease ridership. With Saver
> fares being use it or lose it for any change,
> there will be zero incentive to cancel such
> reservations. They will simply be no-shows and
> empty seats, which is likely the intent against
> those who book months in advance, and will not
> even be allowed to shift their trip by a day if
> they needed to.

As with any fare you book, read the rules in advance before purchase. Duh. 

"Saver Fares are limited in availability and generally require advance purchase. Book early to take advantage of Saver Fares. Classes of Service: Reserved Coach, Acela Business Class Refunds: Full refund if canceled within 24 hours of purchase. Non-refundable 24 hours or more after booking"

Amtrak could be more specific about these fares and the rules. 
 
The upside is cheaper fares, which actually have a way of increasing ridership. You are way overthinking this and creating a problem where one does not exist. 
Look, Amtrak is using this to fill seats during times of decreased traffic, such as seasonal time when demand is soft, ect. and this is the exact thing that they need to do by offering a deal like Saver Fares which targets dates that show low demand. 

If Amtrak was losing market share, you'd probably demand they offer cheaper fares. Now Amtrak is offering cheaper fares to fill unsold space and you are complaining about that!

"One can't have it both ways, and both ways is the only way I want it". 
A.R. Armonds

 

andersonb109 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No different than the airlines lowest fares. If
> you aren't sure of your travel plans, buy a higher
> fare class that is flexible or can be camceled. So
> what's the problem?

Amtrak isn't an airline.

ATSF3751 Wrote:
> As with any fare you book, read the rules in
> advance before purchase. Duh. 
>
> "Saver Fares are limited in availability and
> generally require advance purchase. Book early to
> take advantage of Saver Fares. Classes of Service:
> Reserved Coach, Acela Business Class Refunds: Full
> refund if canceled within 24 hours of purchase.
> Non-refundable 24 hours or more after booking"
>
> Amtrak could be more specific about these fares
> and the rules. 
>  
> The upside is cheaper fares, which actually have a
> way of increasing ridership. You are way
> overthinking this and creating a problem where one
> does not exist. 
> Look, Amtrak is using this to fill seats during
> times of decreased traffic, such as seasonal time
> when demand is soft, ect. and this is the exact
> thing that they need to do by offering a deal like
> Saver Fares which targets dates that show low
> demand. 
>
> If Amtrak was losing market share, you'd probably
> demand they offer cheaper fares. Now Amtrak is
> offering cheaper fares to fill unsold space and
> you are complaining about that!

• "Saver" fares have been around for years.
• They are not only there during periods of slow demand.
• Saver fares do NOT target dates, they are rationed, and first to be used up. They are available for most dates if booked far enough ahead. I have used them on Sunday afternoons on the NEC, weekday northbound Vermonter out of DC, which is always full due to the short consist. None of those are slow periods. Last year, I booked the last one on Sunday NEC train 143 in April that I booked the prior autumn..

My point stands. 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/20 17:30 by joemvcnj.

DevalDragon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> andersonb109 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > No different than the airlines lowest fares. If
> > you aren't sure of your travel plans, buy a
> higher
> > fare class that is flexible or can be camceled.
> So
> > what's the problem?
>
> Amtrak isn't an airline.

Demand is set by pricing in most cases. Amtrak is not different. If it were, the railroads would still be operating the Super Chief, COLA, ect

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ATSF3751 Wrote:
> > As with any fare you book, read the rules in
> > advance before purchase. Duh. 
> >
> > "Saver Fares are limited in availability and
> > generally require advance purchase. Book early
> to
> > take advantage of Saver Fares. Classes of
> Service:
> > Reserved Coach, Acela Business Class Refunds:
> Full
> > refund if canceled within 24 hours of purchase.
> > Non-refundable 24 hours or more after booking"
> >
> > Amtrak could be more specific about these fares
> > and the rules. 
> >  
> > The upside is cheaper fares, which actually have
> a
> > way of increasing ridership. You are way
> > overthinking this and creating a problem where
> one
> > does not exist. 
> > Look, Amtrak is using this to fill seats during
> > times of decreased traffic, such as seasonal
> time
> > when demand is soft, ect. and this is the exact
> > thing that they need to do by offering a deal
> like
> > Saver Fares which targets dates that show low
> > demand. 
> >
> > If Amtrak was losing market share, you'd
> probably
> > demand they offer cheaper fares. Now Amtrak is
> > offering cheaper fares to fill unsold space and
> > you are complaining about that!
>
>

• "Saver" fares have been around for years.
  >
• They are not only there during periods of slow
  > demand.
  >
• Saver fares do NOT target dates, they are
  > rationed, and first to be used up.
•  
• How do you know? Are you part of the Amtrak marketing team? 
•  
• They are
  > available for most dates if booked far enough
  > ahead. I have used them on Sunday afternoons on
  > the NEC, weekday northbound Vermonter out of DC,
  > which is always full due to the short consist.
  > None of those are slow periods. Last year, I
  > booked the last one on Sunday NEC train 143 in
  > April that I booked the prior autumn..
•  
• Well, there ya go, seems you know everything about passenger service marketing. How do you know "none of those are slow periods"? Reading your Amtrak marketing forcasts? Making up your own? Ya, the train is full (probably) partially thanks to aggressive pricing strategies by Amtrak. Then again, maybe you should call them, I'm sure you could show them a thing or two on how to operate empty trains. BTW, did you ask everyone on the train how much they paid for their fare? WHat percentage paid full bucket rates? What percentage paid "other discounts", what percentage used Saver Fares?
• BTW, April is considered a "shoulder" season in the travel industry. Not a busy time for most.  Look it up. 
  >
  > My point stands. 
•  
• Again, if Amtrak could sell those dates at the highest price, there would be no reason to discount them. 
•  
• Your point is a mystery. 
• 
  Still, I admire your passion for Amtrak. 

You claimed that Saver fares only target slow periods. You are wrong. The percentage of cheap seats is what varies. Your arguments have nothing whatever to do with eliminating all changes to such tickets, which will not yield any more demand but produce empty seats that they cannot resell and angry customers. Saver fares are not something new. 

They are often gone months ahead even though most people on the NEC do not book months ahead. There are no slow periods in the NEC, especially when Congress is in session. I had to walk through 3 cars to find a seat, and it was not within a few weeks of Easter or Passover. 

This year I booked a trip on 143. But in January, they inaugurated a new Sunday frequency train 121 that runs a half hour afterwards to take the load off 143 on its peak load point south of NYP, and people from New England to points south of NYPS are less likely to encounter booked up conditions. I simply rebooked. But under the new fares rules, I would not have been able to do that. Diitto for anyone who wanted to rebook from early January. Amtrak has needlessly undermined their own new train. Airline people with end-point mentality do not comprehend that and varying load factors along a route.

As I said up top, customer behavior for people who have to rebook will simply be no-shows, and they won't buy another ticket. They'll drive or take a cheap internet bus service. Even with a penalty on Value fares to change, they are already quite expensive. Miss your non-guaranteed connection from late commuter train along the way, like NJT often is, you lose everything. Again,airline management people don't care. The are not interested in being part of the complex public transit system in the NEC, or anywhere else, except maybe CT Rail. 



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/20 07:53 by joemvcnj.

Amtrak is trying to segment people who use the train for "travel" vs people who use it as a utility.  As they see it such people are either A) on Business or B) wealthy and both were being under charged.  They can do this because demand is high and Northeast cities have become high income hotspots.  

The people being excluded are the ones who had Amtrak as an affordable option for casual NEC travel.  Live in Philly area, family in NYC area.  The people who might be able to get a last minute ride or need to leave earlier or later due to some non-business related change of plan.  Moreover it makes it nearly impossible to use Amtrak in conjunction with public transport as now missing your train can cause you to loose all your initial money and pay a last minute penalty fare.  Factor in extra headways and then the travel time balloons and one might as well just drive. Honestly that's what I've been doing much more of.  One drives that stretch of I-95 often enough that 1:45 stops being so long.

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It will likely decrease ridership. With Saver
> fares being use it or lose it for any change,
> there will be zero incentive to cancel such
> reservations. They will simply be no-shows and
> empty seats, which is likely the intent against
> those who book months in advance, and will not
> even be allowed to shift their trip by a day if
> they needed to.

Oh well.  If you think you might need to change plans, don't by the cheapest tickets.

Typhoon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> joemvcnj Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It will likely decrease ridership. With Saver
> > fares being use it or lose it for any change,
> > there will be zero incentive to cancel such
> > reservations. They will simply be no-shows and
> > empty seats, which is likely the intent against
> > those who book months in advance, and will not
> > even be allowed to shift their trip by a day if
> > they needed to.
>
> Oh well.  If you think you might need to change
> plans, don't by the cheapest tickets.

Exactly! This gives those that are willing to take the risk a very low fare with restrictions. If your schedule requires flexibility, you have the option of paying more for that service. Amtrak will be able to determine the “no show” percentage is fairly short order and overbook to accommodate that rate.

This is a good thing.

another_view Wrote:

> Exactly! This gives those that are willing to take
> the risk a very low fare with restrictions. If
> your schedule requires flexibility, you have the
> option of paying more for that service. Amtrak
> will be able to determine the “no show”
> percentage is fairly short order and overbook to
> accommodate that rate.
>
> This is a good thing.

When they get sticker shock at the higher fares, they'll drive. Not good.
"Flexibility" is not always one's choice. Not all changes can be expected or planned for. . 

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You claimed that Saver fares only target slow
> periods. You are wrong. The percentage of cheap
> seats is what varies. Your arguments have nothing
> whatever to do with eliminating all changes to
> such tickets, which will not yield any more demand
> but produce empty seats that they cannot resell
> and angry customers. Saver fares are not something
> new. 

OMG, back at it again. You seem to be implying that Amtrak is in the business of eliminating riders unless it embraces your 1940's type railroad passenger marketing. 
Oooo....Amtrak is practicing yield management in order to maximum revenue. So what?  Good for them. Smart. 
>
> They are often gone months ahead even though most
> people on the NEC do not book months ahead. There
> are no slow periods in the NEC, especially when
> Congress is in session. I had to walk through 3
> cars to find a seat, and it was not within a few
> weeks of Easter or Passover. 

Amtrak's marketing schemes seem to be working if you had to walk through an entire train to find a seat. Thanks for making my point. 
>
> This year I booked a trip on 143. But in January,
> they inaugurated a new Sunday frequency train 121
> that runs a half hour afterwards to take the load
> off 143 on its peak load point south of NYP, and
> people from New England to points south of NYPS
> are less likely to encounter booked up conditions.
> I simply rebooked. But under the new fares rules,
> I would not have been able to do that. Diitto for
> anyone who wanted to rebook from early January.
> Amtrak has needlessly undermined their own new
> train. Airline people with end-point mentality do
> not comprehend that and varying load factors along
> a route.

Why not wait to see how the new program works. Ya know, those folks who decide not to go and can't get a refund may free up a seat for someone else who got on the train at the last minute. Double revenue for that seat. 
>
> As I said up top, customer behavior for people who
> have to rebook will simply be no-shows, and they
> won't buy another ticket.
Really? I've purchased Amtrak non-refundable tickets and had to cancel. I still ride. I knew what I was getting into when I bought them. Same for an airline ticket I bought. 
A lot of whining going on here. 

They'll drive or take a
> cheap internet bus service. Even with a penalty on
> Value fares to change, they are already quite
> expensive. Miss your non-guaranteed connection
> from late commuter train along the way, like NJT
> often is, you lose everything. Again,airline
> management people don't care. The are not
> interested in being part of the complex public
> transit system in the NEC, or anywhere else,
> except maybe CT Rail. 

You seem to be very knowledgeable about travel in the NE. Can't find fault with that. Still, you're creating a problem where one doesn't even exist....a least not yet. Let the process unfold and see how Amtrak does with the strategy. They're not stupid...despite what you may think....if the fare experiment is not working they will adjust oreliminate. Failure is not way to keep your job.

They have been practicing yield management for decades. That is not the issue. The non-refundability and non-changeability is. Just because the airlines do it is not a valid excuse and does not mean living in the 1940's. Nobody particularly likes airlines anymore either. But Amtrak, unlike most air travel, is a choice on and off the NEC that people can avoid. Most people are not like us and have little tolerance for Amtrak's shenanigans. 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/20 16:56 by joemvcnj.

joemvcnj Wrote:

> When they get sticker shock at the higher fares,
> they'll drive. Not good.


If the only way Amtrak can compete is on price, it is doomed.