Passenger Trains > The difference between Austin and Newton

I spent several months working at Austin, TX, and I noticed some differences in dispatching that are noteworthy.
Whereas at Newton, KS, the dispatcher pretty much shuts down the La Junta subdivision of Eastbound directional freight traffic up to an hour
ahead of Westbound #3, Conversely, the UP dispatcher keeps sending Northbound after Northbound traffic through Austin ahead of #21.
I ask myself, why is that so?  Both railroads are similarly directional at these locations, and single track.  What gives?
To Union Pacific's credit, I really think they have the best intentions, and sound sincere on the radio,
but are probably under more severe pressure to keep the railroad fluid. 
I just think, the UP is probably a little over zealous in what their physical plant can handle, especially with the severe grades coming out of
Austin, and the capacity of sidings North to Taylor.  Nevertheless, time after time, they send freights Northbound ahead of #21!
Some of them are very long, and like the frequent gravel trains, very heavy, and then commonly, they just hope for the best.
I listened enough to the radio chatter to believe, they have the best intentions, but they are simply not willing to shut down the railroad
for a couple of hours, to ensure #21's consistent on time operation.
Some of these trains, especially container trains are sent North hours ahead, so it's probably too late at that point to anticipate #21.
It's telling, whenever the Southbound Eagle is delayed big time, the UP sends freight after freight Northbound.
The flood gates are open!  it really makes you wonder how they even thread #21 though all that traffic to begin with?
With PTC initialization delays and freight traffic, the Eagle is "Never" on time southbound from Austin! 
To add fuel to the fire, the Southbound schedule allows 10 minutes less on the laboriously slow Temple to Taylor segment versus the Northbound counterpart.
Can anyone explain that schedule anomaly?  Amtrak needs to face reality, and adjust the timetable!  It's simply not realistic!



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 02/29/20 05:31 by mp51w.

I want to emphasize, I really think the Union Pacific dispatchers have the best intentions in mind, but the realities of that environment do not allow a passenger train to transit that piece of railroad expeditiously!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/28/20 13:05 by mp51w.

mp51w Wrote:
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> Whereas at Newton, KS, the dispatcher pretty much
> shuts down the La Junta subdivision of Eastbound
> directional freight traffic up to an hour
> ahead of Westbound #3, Conversely, the UP
> dispatcher keeps sending Northbound after
> Northbound traffic through Austin ahead of #21.
> I ask myself, why is that so?  Both railroads are
> similarly directional at these locations, and
> single track.  What gives?
> To Union Pacific's credit, I really think they
> have the best intentions, and sound sincere on the
> radio,

They don't figure time. That may be they won't figure time or they can't figure time (or maybe they are not given the time to figure time; that happens a lot too). I generally suspect one of the latter two since those conditions seems to be prevalent.

The whole concept of shutting down for..(whatever) is so far away from how to manage traffic that you can't see the right way to manage traffic from there.

When handling traffic that includes important and/or especially important trains, start with

1. First priority trains (e.g., passenger, RHSAZT (Red Hot Smokin' Awesome Z Train)). If that kind encounter each other, where will it be? Reserve that spot. Nothing else heppens there at the time. Location a toss up? Sharpen the pencil and figure again. Still a toss up? Figure the effect of both and pick the better one, but pick one and stick to it.

2. Lower priority trains (in priority order if there are more than one level) Where will each of them be for the first priority train? The places they can't have already been staked out. Don't push it too hard, in case you need Plan B.

3. Low priority trains against each other...figure each meet. The places they can't have already been staked out in 1 and 2. If you're out of places, back off and look for a place to put that one off the game board (the next district have gandys staring at the stars waiting for the train you can't use? Say something!).

Understand that this might be necessary hours before you see any of the trains that will be involved.

None of this involves a rule-of-thumb amount of "shutdown." You may be running trains seemingly normally or trains may be staked out for a long time. It has to be figured every time.

This is the Cliff's Notes. I could write a boo...oh, wait.

TAW

Y'all are missing one important detail. The UP Austin sub runs directionally north. Amtrak is one of the few southbounds on that piece of railroad.

For the benefit of the unitiated ... what book?  Pretty please!

Hartington Wrote:
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> For the benefit of the unitiated ... what book? 
> Pretty please!

http://www.vtd.net/vtdpub/ETD/ETD%20V1.html
http://www.vtd.net/vtdpub/ETD2/ETD%20v2.html
http://www.vtd.net/vtdpub/MRT/MRT.html

TAW

DevalDragon Wrote:
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> Y'all are missing one important detail. The UP
> Austin sub runs directionally north. Amtrak is one
> of the few southbounds on that piece of railroad.

That doesn't change the way to handle the traffic. Any line anywhere can be a five on one seemingly one way railroad at some time during the day.

TAW

The last time the Southbound Texas Eagle departed Austin on time was July 7, 2019!
https://juckins.net/amtrak_status/archive/html/historychart.php?train_num=21&station=aus&date_start=03%2F01%2F2019&date_end=02%2F29%2F2020&sort=d_dp&chartsize=3&smooth=0



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/29/20 05:28 by mp51w.

Which makes the figuring of time easier.
The time variables (acceleration, deceleration, holding back clear of crossings) involved with other 
freight vs. freight opposing meets are eliminated.

DevalDragon Wrote:
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> Y'all are missing one important detail. The UP
> Austin sub runs directionally north. Amtrak is one
> of the few southbounds on that piece of railroad.

It sure seems like one train headed South and all the rest headed North would be pretty easy to dispatch.

One question, are you saying 21 is always late because of the delays between Temple and Austin?  I wonder how often 21 is on time out of Fort Worth?

If it was as easy as everyone on Trainorders thinks it is 21 would be on time every day wouldn't it?

Been on # 21 many times out of Ft. Worth on time or a little ahead till Austin. Seems like after leaving Austin you meet a fleet of Northbounds and may hop from siding to siding to get around them. UP tends to bunch trains up were as BNSF get's the traffic in the clear well before Amtrak is due thru.

SP7615

DevalDragon Wrote:
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> Y'all are missing one important detail. The UP
> Austin sub runs directionally north. Amtrak is one
> of the few southbounds on that piece of railroad.

interesting because the amount AND length of sidings for meets would be very important that piece of railroad............

66

DevalDragon Wrote:
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> If it was as easy as everyone on Trainorders
> thinks it is

I recognize at least two other folks here who know what it takes to do it right.


> 21 would be on time every day
> wouldn't it?

My initial response answsers your question: They don't figure time. That may be they won't figure time or they can't figure time (or maybe they are not given the time to figure time; that happens a lot too). I generally suspect one of the latter two since those conditions seems to be prevalent.

TAW

 

We routinely wait an hour or two for both Amtrak’s to pass by Newton before the EB flow is released. This can cause a backup 50-60 miles down line. The old head dispatchers would always run trains down to the nuts but they have all mostly retired or bid off. The newer DS’ are usually unwilling to learn run times, going as far as to routinely ask us when we think we’ll be to a certain point. Of course a contributing factor is with the throttle restrictions and Trip Optimizer running the trains 5-10 mph under track speed makes the DS’ scared to put anything out ahead of them.

This is just another reason for the ongoing double track project on the Emporia Sub that will most likely cure this issue.

Posted from iPhone

for a dispatcher to run his railroad by "making good meets" and NOT ruining it for a symbol means that mgt. needs to let them do it.

the last thing i ever wanted to do was call "recrews", plug sidings with tied down trains., and not get trains off my territory a.s.a.p...........

66



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/20 15:11 by goneon66.

Milw_E70 Wrote:
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> The old head dispatchers would always run
> trains down to the nuts

That used to be required in order to become a train dispatcher and in order to keep the job.


> but they have all mostly
> retired or bid off. The newer DS’ are usually
> unwilling to learn run times, going as far as to
> routinely ask us when we think we’ll be to a
> certain point.

Back to my observation: They don't figure time. That may be they won't figure time or they can't figure time (or maybe they are not given the time to figure time; that happens a lot too). I generally suspect one of the latter two since those conditions seems to be prevalent.

There's another element. Qualified on a territory used to involve knowing the track configuration and topography so well you could draw a map from scratch (as with a locomotive engineer). It used to involve knowing the normal running times for each type of train between any two points. It used to involve knowing what affected the running times and to be able to calculate the abnormal train or situation. It is all used to. That, again, matches my observation.

Reduce expectations and you will get what you expect. I have heard of dispatchers who are "qualified" on way more than a dozen territories. That can't be (or maybe with a couple of decades of experience). I can see able to get by on (the apparent requirement), but I wouldn't call that qualified.

Of course a contributing factor is
> with the throttle restrictions and Trip Optimizer
> running the trains 5-10 mph under track speed
> makes the DS’ scared to put anything out ahead
> of them.

That just takes study of what is happening while you are working. If a train doesn't perform as expected, find out why and add it to experience for reference later.

Old time chiefs, even the meanest ones, after a debacle, would find out why you did what you did and if the event that blew it up was truly unpredictable. Now, it's instant threats, no matter what. That doesn't make the railroad run any better.

>
> This is just another reason for the ongoing double
> track project on the Emporia Sub that will most
> likely cure this issue.
>

That's a lot more expensive than competent and qualified train dispatchers. (granted that the line might need more railroad anyway, but in my experience, infrastructure is often substituted for professional train dispatching)

TAW

When I was a dispatcher I knew which Engineers were runners and which ones followed the speed limits.  I made decisions based on horsepower, tonnage and engineer.  Figuring time was one of the first things the old heads taught me and later I taught it to my trainees.