Passenger Trains > Democrats Bite the Bullet Train...Wall St. Journal Editorial

Democrats Bite the Bullet Train
Wall St. Journal
The coronavirus may finally kill Jerry Brown’s boondoggle to nowhere.

May 29, 2020 6:50 pm ET

In the very small department of coronavirus silver linings, a budget crunch in California is causing Democrats to re-examine some wasteful spending. This includes, fiscal saints be praised, former Gov. Jerry Brown’s bullet train to nowhere.

Gov. Gavin Newsom last year scaled back progressive ambitions for a 500-mile high-speed train from Orange County to San Francisco due to cost overruns, logistical headaches and legal challenges. Instead the state would build a 171-mile starter train between Bakersfield and Merced in the Central Valley.

Democrats now want to shorten the line to the 120 miles of track already under construction and run lower-cost diesel trains in lieu of cleaner electric ones. Recall that the train’s original purpose was to reduce carbon emissions. California’s 2008 bond initiative also said the train “will not require operating subsidy.”

The state High-Speed Rail Authority now projects the 171-mile stretch would cost $20 billion to build and lose between $40 million and $90 million a year. Even that assumes millions of people living in the Central Valley each year will ride the train to Merced and then use commuter rail to connect to San Jose.

As economic consultants William Grindley and Bill Warren have pointed out, a round-trip between Bakersfield and San Jose would take 12 hours and 10 minutes and cost $189 without a subsidy and $104 with a subsidy.

Assembly Democrats are pushing legislation that would allow $5 billion to be redirected from the Central Valley choo-choo to commuter trains in Southern California and Bay Area. This would relieve highway congestion and perhaps ease housing demand in dense coastal cities. Democrats in Sacramento deserve credit for setting new pandemic priorities.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/30/20 23:38 by GenePoon.

Such a waste of money

Posted from Android

I gave up on this project years ago -- the second I heard the completion date was 30 years.

I don't knock Calif., however.  They have some excellent  passenger train services & have achieved a lot:
(Cailtrain electrification--, BART extension to San Jose--, LA's Purple Subway  Line extension, etc.)

But,  they, like the rest of America, simply can't handle really big rail projects-- for example Can't handle these projects either"

.  The Hudson River Tunnels (or the smaller Baltimore Tunnels either)
.  Chi-St.Louis fast train project
. The CREATE project in Chicago--proposal to create a passenger train expressway into and out of the City.
 

ronald321 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
. . . . 
> But,  they, like the rest of America, simply
> can't handle really big rail projects-- for
> example Can't handle these projects either"
>
> .  The Hudson River Tunnels (or the smaller
> Baltimore Tunnels either)
> .  Chi-St.Louis fast train project
> . The CREATE project in Chicago--proposal to
> create a passenger train expressway into and out
> of the City.
>  
The CREATE project has far broader objectives than creation of a "passenger train expressway" and is generally considered one of the more successful Public/Private Partnership projects.  A difference, in my opinion, is that CREATE has been largely project-managed by the railroads who have major skin in the game whereas CHSR has been a political football from the beginning.

Gordon

in this day and age it seems the #1 spending PRIORITY should be PROTECTING lives and property............

66

goneon66 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> in this day and age it seems the #1 spending PRIORITY should be PROTECTING lives and property............

Are you ok?  Were you the victim of a crime?  You seem to have a Rain Man level obsession with crime statistics.

It seems to me that just like the spending on California High Speed Rail project, spending on Policing should be reformed first before throwing more money at it. 

The Policeman who murdered George Floyd had more than a dozen complaints against him, yet he was still on the street in uniform. Why didn't the other policemen there on the scene do anything?  Why did it take days to arrest him?  We have very recent cases of folks being murdered in their houses by policemen during mistaken raids.

I have seen cell phone video of a "protester" in Pittsburgh who started violence and obviously was not a member of the otherwise peaceful demonstrations.  One has to wonder how much other violence was started by outside agitators.

Yet peacefully bending a knee was blasted by our President and Vice President.

In 1962, John F. Kennedy said, "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."

Brian

choodude Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> goneon66 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > in this day and age it seems the #1 spending
> PRIORITY should be PROTECTING lives and
> property............
>
> Are you ok?  Were you the victim of a crime? 
> You seem to have a Rain Man level obsession with
> crime statistics.
>
> It seems to me that just like the spending on
> California High Speed Rail project, spending on
> Policing should be reformed first before throwing
> more money at it. 
>
> The Policeman who murdered George Floyd had more
> than a dozen complaints against him, yet he was
> still on the street in uniform. Why didn't the
> other policemen there on the scene do anything? 
> Why did it take days to arrest him?  We have very
> recent cases of folks being murdered in their
> houses by policemen during mistaken raids.
>
> I have seen cell phone video of a "protester" in
> Pittsburgh who started violence and obviously was
> not a member of the otherwise peaceful
> demonstrations.  One has to wonder how much other
> violence was started by outside agitators.
>
> Yet peacefully bending a knee was blasted by our
> President and Vice President.
>
> In 1962, John F. Kennedy said, "Those who make
> peaceful revolution impossible will make violent
> revolution inevitable."
>
> Brian

Very well stated, Brian.

Circling back to transportation, many years ago, I read a report which considered the causes of the Watts riots of the 1960s.  One of those causes was residents' frustration with inadequate public transportation in Los Angeles.

While public safety is important, there are also other civic functions for which investments must be made in order to have communities which work for everyone. 

To be fair, the train to nowhere was started by Republican Gov. Schwartzneger.

It's the Wall Street Journal...no spending, tax cuts for the rich and corporate give-a-ways...

RuleG Wrote:

> Circling back to transportation, many years ago, I
> read a report which considered the causes of the
> Watts riots of the 1960s.  One of those causes
> was residents' frustration with inadequate public
> transportation in Los Angeles.
>

McCone Commission Report, 

In particular, the last of the Red Cars (the line between LA and Long Beach, but with stops in South LA, Watts, etc) stopped running in 1961. Replacement 
bus service consisted of a (slower) local bus line between Watts and LA, and a freeway express bus (bypassing South Central) from LA to Long Beach.
Also a lot of jobs were in places like Torrance, El Segundo, Santa Monica, etc. requiring a commuter from South Central to ride to Downtown LA first, using the
radial bus network in place (few if any direct, crosstown, lines).


 

12 hours from Bakersfield to San Jose,  is this a typo?   On a rainy night in December 1965 I drove my 56 Chevy from downtown San Francisco to Glendale in about 6 hours,  using then Hwy 99 from Manteca or thereabouts all the way south.  And it sure as hell didn't cost $189 for gas.  This HSR/ACE routing boondoggle is considered progress 55 years later?   Today,  BAK to SJC is about four hours by car.  



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/20 10:10 by masterphots.

during difficult economic times, is there a demand for more commuter train services in so. cal and the bay area?

66

 

masterphots Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 12 hours from Bakersfield to San Jose,  is this a
> typo? 

The schedule (and fares) was quoted for a *round trip* in the article. So divide by 2...six hours (and five minutes) one way. 
(Which is roughly how long the existing San Joaquins take to get from Bakersfield to Emeryville...)

What I'd like to see is some way to get a fully-electrified, one-seat ride from Bakersfield to Fresno, via the Altamont Pass, to the Bay Area. 
We could have a meaningful service much quicker. (Bakersfield to Merced isn't all that politically impressive, and the tunnel to San Jose will take
another 10 years and billions to build--this can still be done later).

 

nedzarp Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To be fair, the train to nowhere was started by
> Republican Gov. Schwartzneger.

Arnold was a R.I.N.O.

masterphots Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 12 hours from Bakersfield to San Jose,  is this a
> typo?................ Today,  BAK to SJC is
> about four hours by car.  

AND, you can stop when you want, with a wide variety of food, coffee and lodging options.  In addition, there are no screaming kids, no unpleasant odors and nobody telling you what you can and cannot do.  You'll drive along in comfort, knowing that you won't be offloaded in the middle of nowhere and onto a bus due to a decision made by someone else.  And now, in this day of the dreaded CW Virus, you can ride safely without a mask in your own car, listening to your favorite music without earphones.  Since our state government is so inept and incapable of building much of anything major these days, the CA HSR project needs to be scrapped right now, before anymore money goes down the rabbit hole.

RuleG Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> choodude Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > goneon66 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > in this day and age it seems the #1 spending
> > PRIORITY should be PROTECTING lives and
> > property............
> >
> > Are you ok?  Were you the victim of a crime? 
> > You seem to have a Rain Man level obsession
> with
> > crime statistics.
> >
> > It seems to me that just like the spending on
> > California High Speed Rail project, spending on
> > Policing should be reformed first before
> throwing
> > more money at it. 

currently, we are at the start of a pandemic, record HIGH unemployment, and a SEVERE economic downturn.

this has caused and could continue to cause SEVERE tax revenue SHORTAGES for states and cities.  tax revenues FUND public safety (police/fire/ems) hiring and continued training.

the LAST thing we need now are any funding problems with public safety.

   
> > The Policeman who murdered George Floyd had
> more
> > than a dozen complaints against him, yet he was
> > still on the street in uniform. Why didn't the
> > other policemen there on the scene do
> anything? 
> > Why did it take days to arrest him?  We have
> very
> > recent cases of folks being murdered in their
> > houses by policemen during mistaken raids.
> >
> > I have seen cell phone video of a "protester"
> in
> > Pittsburgh who started violence and obviously
> was
> > not a member of the otherwise peaceful
> > demonstrations.  One has to wonder how much
> other
> > violence was started by outside agitators.
> >
> > Yet peacefully bending a knee was blasted by
> our
> > President and Vice President.
> >
> > In 1962, John F. Kennedy said, "Those who make
> > peaceful revolution impossible will make
> violent
> > revolution inevitable."
> >
> > Brian
>
> Very well stated, Brian.
>
> Circling back to transportation, many years ago, I
> read a report which considered the causes of the
> Watts riots of the 1960s.  One of those causes
> was residents' frustration with inadequate public
> transportation in Los Angeles.

to my knowledge, currently there is adequate public transportation in so. cal and the bay area.

> While public safety is important, there are also
> other civic functions for which investments must
> be made in order to have communities which work
> for everyone. 

66



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/31/20 11:46 by goneon66.

goneon66 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> during difficult economic times, is there a demand
> for more commuter train services in so. cal and
> the bay area?
>
> 66
>
>  

Yes and yes. They haul way more then just commuters.

Streamliner Wrote:
> AND, you can stop when you want, with a wide
> variety of food, coffee and lodging options.  In
> addition, there are no screaming kids, no
> unpleasant odors and nobody telling you what you
> can and cannot do.  You'll drive along in
> comfort, knowing that you won't be offloaded in
> the middle of nowhere and onto a bus due to a
> decision made by someone else.  And now, in this
> day of the dreaded CW Virus, you can ride safely
> without a mask in your own car, listening to your
> favorite music without earphones.  Since our
> state government is so inept and incapable of
> building much of anything major these days, the CA
> HSR project needs to be scrapped right now, before
> anymore money goes down the rabbit hole.

I have ridden all the California services (Capitol Corrdor, Surfliiner, San Joaquin) many times without being subjected to unnpleasant odors, screaming kids and being offloaded in the middle of nowhere.  In all those many times I will admit to a single occasion in which we sat south of Surf for nearly six hours one night after the computer shut down the engine and all efforts failed to resolve the issue.  Various issues caused a delay in getting a rescue engine, but we had lights and AC and the crew distributed food items from the cafe car.  Not an experience you would want to repeat but it worked out and was one out of many trips.

If you have had all the terrible experiences you cite, then I suppose you would, in fact, be better off in your private car; it may be that you bring bad karma onto the trains

PHall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> goneon66 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > during difficult economic times, is there a
> demand
> > for more commuter train services in so. cal and
> > the bay area?
> >
> > 66
> >
> >  
>
> Yes and yes. They haul way more then just
> commuters.

i don't expect you to agree with me but during RECORD high unemployment and a SEVERE economic downturn, i would think the demand for commuter train ridership (workers, pleasure seekers, trip connections, etc.) would be reduced............

66

nedzarp Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To be fair, the train to nowhere was started by
> Republican Gov. Schwartzneger.

Yup. However, in hindsight, I'll speculate a reason why CA HSR project hasn't gone anywhere.

It has been commented here numerous times that Governor Jerry Brown had foamer tendencies. One example is his surprise visit to Niles Canyon Railway. That in itself isn't the problem, but note the cheerleading-only "advocates" on TO who refused to view the project critically. They simply like the idea of HSR, ignorant of the effort required to build one. I gently helped them understand the issues by posting tidbits on how the Japanese went out about building the Shinkansen, but it fell to deaf ears.

I believe Gov. Brown and his foamer tendencies behaved similarly, and missed several chances to effectively shuffle the CA HSR board members to move the project forward - just cheerlead, don't look at problems. We don't have leaders who truly understand passenger railroading anymore, and not a surprise in an automotive-centric, train stupid society.

People can debate whether Schwarzenegger was a RINO or not, but he was a political rookie, and easily manipulated. There are many things "under the hood" politically that led to Prop 1A being on the ballot in 2008, and again, I've posted tidbits from what I knew since 2004, but the feeble TO members can't handle "conspiracies" and they lose it mentally when they hear things they don't like. So I'll stop talking here, and let the ignorants suffer.