Passenger Trains > Adding Share of Passenger Market

The Wall Street Journal has an article about Southwest Airlines efforts to grab share of market from United, and American. There are some lessons for Amtrak.

SW is going into O'Hare, Houston Bush, Miami, and other hubs with low prices. Filling seats. Like Amtrak, SW cut about 40% of flight capacity. But, few employees. American and United cut 2/3 of flights, and waived the highly profitable change fees.

So, should Amtrak cut fares to boost volume, and fill trains? Or, should it ADD more cars to allow more spaced capacity?

Paywall:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/southwest-airlines-aims-to-challenge-rivals-at-ohare-and-in-houston-11602537629?mod=hp_lista_pos3

Posted from Android

planes have a better air turnover i guess in the cabins

so you can sit next to a person and it is still like 7 foot distance they claim except if droplets land on you

air enters the top, gets sucked out in the bottom

turn over every 3 minutes

amtrak mgmt does not even want to run anything besides contracted services and the corridor

Imagine an Amtrak ad campaign:  

“We have doubled the number of cars in each train, just for your comfort and safety. If you need to travel, come join us. Spread out, enjoy the leg room. And the social distance, too. “

Rightly or wrongly, people trust Southwest. Most, myself included, do not trust United or American. Both UA and AA have been notorious for the "creeping delay" where (on my most recent flight) for nearly 4 hours they kept telling us the flight will be delayed by 15...30....45....60...75..etc., minutes pinning us down at the gate so we could not have a decent dinner, etc. There have already been a number of investigative news reports that demonstrate that UA and AA's claims about super cleaning their planes before every flight are overstated. 

So, in the era of COVID, Southwest may uniquely be able to pull this off because people -- again, rightly or wrongly -- trust ithem. I strongly question the logic of moving to overcrowded O'Hare and Intercontinental but they may see something I do not. 

I don't believe Amtrak has anywhere near that level of trust. Plus, the 3 days/week LD service is corporate suicide. Some call trust in a corporation "relationship capital" (RC). I think Amtrak has spent just about its last dollar of RC.

As I see it, the only hope for LD passenger trains would be for Congress to put the assets of Amtrak up for sale with the proviso that the new company could do two things:

• Increase the frequency of the trains (e.g. twice/day departures for the Southwest Chief) in return for,
• Capital to freight railroads to upgrade the tracks to the speeds seen by the Super Chief and others (90-100 mph in places). Of course, their freights would benefit from the improved trackage. 
• The freight RRs give the passenger trains the highest priority with severe penalties for not doing so.

Note: I do not believe a sufficient market exists to support this. However, after decades of people and groups' positions ranging from "kill the LD trains" all the way to "Amtrak is completely sold out many days in summer, that proves there is a far larger market than people believe" this is the only way I can see that would allow America to decide, once and for all, whether there is a viable market for medium speed passenger trains. 

OT, SWA is moving into Chicago O'Hare and Houston Intercontinental because they connect with more airlines there which makes connections easier for their customers.
Happy customers makes for repeat customers.    That and no baggage or change fees...
Yes, I am a SWA frequent flier.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/12/20 18:03 by PHall.

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Wall Street Journal has an article about
> Southwest Airlines efforts to grab share of market
> from United, and American. There are some lessons
> for Amtrak.

Should one assume that Amtrak is interested?

TAW

TAW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Should one assume that Amtrak is interested?
>
> TAW

Doubt it.

-John

Only if a sizable portion of the US rail network gets converted to the open access model will the LDTs have a chance to gain a bigger share of the passenger marketplace.

MSE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Note: I do not believe a sufficient market exists
> to support this. However, after decades of people
> and groups' positions ranging from "kill the LD
> trains" all the way to "Amtrak is completely sold
> out many days in summer, that proves there is a
> far larger market than people believe" this is the
> only way I can see that would allow America to
> decide, once and for all, whether there is a
> viable market for medium speed passenger trains. 

Why don't you think there is a "sufficient" market?  What does that even mean?

When more train service is offered, ridership increases geometrically. Double the trains, triple the ridership, that sort of thing.

Amtrak barely offers train service outside the NEC, Illinois, and California. Its hard to believe there isn't a sufficient market elsewhere when American's love to travel.

I thought it was Southwest's policy to not connect with other airlines. Has that changed?


PHall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> OT, SWA is moving into Chicago O'Hare and Houston
> Intercontinental because they connect with more
> airlines there which makes connections easier for
> their customers.
> Happy customers makes for repeat customers.   
> That and no baggage or change fees...
> Yes, I am a SWA frequent flier.

i think amtrak should ADD more cars immediately..........

66

If Amtrak advertised like Southwest does, and provided a consistent dependable product like Southwest does, they'd be on to something. Southwest Airlines is almost a household name. The general public in most of the United States doesn't even know Amtrak exists. If I had a dollar for every time someone told me, "I didn't know the train ran through here," I would have a nice bank account. Southwest gets it. Amtrak doesn't even know what "it" is.

Southwst lost my trust when they continued flying the MAX 8 after even I (no expert) knew they weren't safe.

stuporchief Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Southwst lost my trust when they continued flying
> the MAX 8 after even I (no expert) knew they
> weren't safe.

I didn't know SW even had any Max 8's yet.
 

norm1153 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I didn't know SW even had any Max 8's yet.

SW was the force behind getting the Rube Goldberg planes built.

The airline wanted to maintain flight deck compatibility.  

Who here said "I trust SWA, and not United or American?"  what?   

SWA, The "cattle car" of airlines.  They are competent, and the good news is they (at least used to ) let their employees problem solve without being 2nd guessed by mgmt.  OTOH, I would never get on a flight that was over half full, and if they are so proud of filling flights, I would SOOOOO stay away.   SWA has crowd mentality, and these arent the days for wanting to be in a crowd.   I mean unless your are sure that getting Covid will be a walk in the park. Apparently, some ppl here still think its nothing, or have martyr mentailty, or are just old and dont care

Amtk...Its the post office of the rails!!!   Occasionally you'll meet someone in Mgmt who would really like to run a RR, but the ppl abv will tell them to sit down and shut up and just do your job and cruise till retirement if u can.  The govt and quasi govt agencies hate initiative.  It so rocks the boat.

 

MSE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rightly or wrongly, people trust Southwest.
> Most, myself included, do not trust United or
> American. Both UA and AA have been notorious for
> the "creeping delay" where (on my most recent
> flight) for nearly 4 hours they kept telling us
> the flight will be delayed by
> 15...30....45....60...75..etc., minutes pinning us
> down at the gate so we could not have a decent
> dinner, etc. There have already been a number of
> investigative news reports that demonstrate that
> UA and AA's claims about super cleaning their
> planes before every flight are overstated. 
>
> So, in the era of COVID, Southwest may uniquely be
> able to pull this off because people -- again,
> rightly or wrongly -- trust ithem. I strongly
> question the logic of moving to overcrowded O'Hare
> and Intercontinental but they may see something I
> do not. 
>
> I don't believe Amtrak has anywhere near that
> level of trust. Plus, the 3 days/week LD service
> is corporate suicide. Some call trust in a
> corporation "relationship capital" (RC). I think
> Amtrak has spent just about its last dollar of
> RC.
>
> As I see it, the only hope for LD passenger trains
> would be for Congress to put the assets of Amtrak
> up for sale with the proviso that the new company
> could do two things:
>
> [*]Increase the frequency of the trains (e.g.
> twice/day departures for the Southwest Chief) in
> return for,
> [*]Capital to freight railroads to upgrade the
> tracks to the speeds seen by the Super Chief and
> others (90-100 mph in places). Of course, their
> freights would benefit from the improved
> trackage. 
> [*]The freight RRs give the passenger trains the
> highest priority with severe penalties for not
> doing so.
>
> Note: I do not believe a sufficient market exists
> to support this. However, after decades of people
> and groups' positions ranging from "kill the LD
> trains" all the way to "Amtrak is completely sold
> out many days in summer, that proves there is a
> far larger market than people believe" this is the
> only way I can see that would allow America to
> decide, once and for all, whether there is a
> viable market for medium speed passenger trains. 

Just who do you think might bid on such an insane concept? Congress already put three Amtrak LD routes out for private operation, guaranteeing the operator would receive the same amount that Amtrak currently receives to operate the service. The response from private operators was deafening in its silence.

Posted from iPhone

ts1457 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> norm1153 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I didn't know SW even had any Max 8's yet.
>
> SW was the force behind getting the Rube Goldberg
> planes built.
>
> The airline wanted to maintain flight deck
> compatibility.  

Nope. The major driving force was to prevent a major order by American Airlines from going to Airbus.

People, comparing a mode of transportation done by well versed and seasoned public/private companies using government infrastructure to a quasi-government railroad which has no real complete plan/direction from the Federal Government that controls it and using public/private infrastructure is comparing apples to almonds. They are both food that grows on trees but that is it.

jst3751 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nope. The major driving force was to prevent a
> major order by American Airlines from going to
> Airbus.

https://boeing.mediaroom.com/2011-12-13-Boeing-737-MAX-Logs-First-Firm-Order-from-Launch-Customer-Southwest-Airlines

That would have been for the Max 7. Not sure who had first order for Max 8.

Might have been SWA also:

https://airwaysmag.com/industry/boeing-737-max-timeline/



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/13/20 14:50 by ts1457.