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Passenger Trains > BNSF seeks to discontinue cab signals on Race Track


Date: 01/08/21 11:33
BNSF seeks to discontinue cab signals on Race Track
Author: twropr

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/11/27/2020-26161/notice-of-application-for-approval-of-discontinuance-or-modification-of-a-railroad-signal-system
This is on the triple track line that all the Chicago-Aurora Metra trains use.  Since max. speed is 70 MPH, removal of cab signals is not an issue.  It would be nice IF the equipment could be installed on the Mendota Sub., between Aurora and Galesburg, where max. speed has been limited to 79 MPH for years.  The I-ETMS style of PTC that BNSF (and most freight roads) use apparently does not allow 79+ passenger speeds without an overlay, such as Incremental Train Control System (ITCS used in MI and Joliet-East St Louis) or cab signals.  The former Q between Aurora and Galesburg hosted (Pre-COVID) two Chicago-Quincy round trips along with the California Zephyr and Southwest Chief and could handle additional trains IF the proposed train to Moline ever comes to be.
Andy



Date: 01/08/21 13:06
Re: BNSF seeks to discontinue cab signals on Race Track
Author: ronald321

Will this increase or decease permissible track speed?



Date: 01/08/21 13:10
Re: BNSF seeks to discontinue cab signals on Race Track
Author: HotWater

ronald321 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Will this increase or decease permissible track
> speed?

Probably no change, since the East End, as it is properly call by "old Burlington people", is good for 79 MPH anyway.



Date: 01/08/21 13:47
Re: BNSF seeks to discontinue cab signals on Race Track
Author: TractiveEffort

twropr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The I-ETMS style of PTC
> that BNSF (and most freight roads) use apparently
> does not allow 79+ passenger speeds without an
> overlay, such as Incremental Train Control System
> (ITCS used in MI and Joliet-East St Louis) or cab
> signals.

Not true.  The FRA certification level of BNSF's (and others') I-ETMS PTC system allows operation at up to 90MPH.



Date: 01/08/21 14:14
Re: BNSF seeks to discontinue cab signals on Race Track
Author: lordsigma

They must have designed their PTC implementation with the intention to discontinue the cab signals.

Posted from iPhone



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/08/21 14:18 by lordsigma.



Date: 01/08/21 17:00
Re: BNSF seeks to discontinue cab signals on Race Track
Author: Passfanatic

Isn't the top speed 79 on the Chicago Sub for passenger trains?



Date: 01/08/21 17:50
Re: BNSF seeks to discontinue cab signals on Race Track
Author: 2904

Top speed on the East End is 70 MPH. IETMS isn’t certified for 90 MPH by itself yet, anywhere trains operate at 90 MPH there is another form of train control in use, like ATS.

Posted from iPhone



Date: 01/09/21 05:39
Re: BNSF seeks to discontinue cab signals on Race Track
Author: KV1guy

My thoughts are that they are doing the same thing CSX is requesting of the RF&P sub between DC and Richmond, VA.  They are getting rid of the speed enforcement side of the cab signals only...because they penalize trains to slow down miles before the location where the actual restriction is.  PTC can allow trains much closer, and then the rest of the cab signals will be used as usual to upgrade block conditions and relieve trains from D.I.B. when stopped with no signal to depart on.

As side info, that last part...NS already permits you to do so as long as you are showing a favorable target at the next signal in PTC.



Date: 01/09/21 06:41
Re: BNSF seeks to discontinue cab signals on Race Track
Author: TractiveEffort

KV1guy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My thoughts are that they are doing the same thing
> CSX is requesting of the RF&P sub between DC and
> Richmond, VA.  They are getting rid of the speed
> enforcement side of the cab signals only..

BNSF's petition is for outright and complete discontinuance; it is not simply a petition to retire the speed control function of the onboard cab signal apparatus.  Also note that BNSF trains have long been exempted from the operation of cab signals on the Chicago sub - only the commuter trains operated by BNSF for Metra utilize them.



Date: 01/09/21 07:45
Re: BNSF seeks to discontinue cab signals on Race Track
Author: KV1guy

TractiveEffort Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> KV1guy Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > My thoughts are that they are doing the same
> thing
> > CSX is requesting of the RF&P sub between DC
> and
> > Richmond, VA.  They are getting rid of the
> speed
> > enforcement side of the cab signals only..
>
> BNSF's petition is for outright and complete
> discontinuance; it is not simply a petition to
> retire the speed control function of the onboard
> cab signal apparatus.  Also note that BNSF trains
> have long been exempted from the operation of cab
> signals on the Chicago sub - only the commuter
> trains operated by BNSF for Metra utilize them.


Gotcha.  Does BNSF have a rule that allows PTC to null any D.I.B. rules for stopped trains such as at passenger stops with no departure signal to go on?



Date: 01/09/21 09:46
Re: BNSF seeks to discontinue cab signals on Race Track
Author: ATSF1129

KV1guy Wrote:

>
> Gotcha.  Does BNSF have a rule that allows PTC to
> null any D.I.B. rules for stopped trains such as
> at passenger stops with no departure signal to go
> on?

GCOR Actually allows trains are delayed in the block with active and working PTC to operate according to the PTC display. BNSF on the other hand has written that out of the rules for the SSI that followed the current GCOR edition.



Date: 01/11/21 16:15
Re: BNSF seeks to discontinue cab signals on Race Track
Author: lordsigma

Given that the IETMS PTC can receive the cab code and assign the appropriate speed restriction beginning at the aspect change point (with the aspect change points loaded into the computer) it probably can enforce the restriction closer to the start of the affected block than the traditional speed control.

Posted from iPhone



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