Passenger Trains > NJ: Hoboken Terminal upgrading

The New York Times has an article today about plans to update and open the upper floor of Hoboken Terminal as an event and dining space. The upper floor, once known as the ferry concourse, was accessed by the wide staircase at the river end of Track 8 and led to the upper decks of the ferryboats.  In the 1920s, the area also accommodated a luxury restaurant with views of the river, and later a dispatcher's facility.  I believe there are crew rooms in the upper level now.

Many pictures of the current terminal, and the to-be-restored space.  Paywall possible

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/16/nyregion/hoboken-ferry-terminal.html

I love this article's last photo with the sign reading "Seating for Ticketed Customers Only, Two-Hour Time Limit" with the blissfully indifferent pigeon in front.

Looks like the renovation of this space will be a nice enhancement for the terminal.

This has the potential to be wonderful, if its done with the flavor of the old terminal.  Upstairs there is a wonderful trip back in time.
Just hope they dont put in some modern plastic and glass thing, that wouldnt fit the era of the terminal.
EL Division offices were up there too.

As NJT makes Hoboken Terminal harder and harder to get to without any public notice. Over the last few years, 4 rush hour Montclair trains have been diverted to NYPS. Of the 3 remaining (there were once 6) Long Branch Coast Line trains, 1 more has been discontinued, and 2 others have been diverted to NYPS. So now they are down 7 pairs of rush hour trains.  Far more trains were cut in 2008 and 2009 from the M&E and Raritan line. One convenience store that had some take out fast food has been shuttered. There is nothing left but a Dunkin. There is also a vagrancy problem in the men's room. NY Waterway charges $9.50 for a ferry ride with a senior discount of a whole dollar. They are quire irrelevant. PATH is $3. 

 This NYT puff piece ("all the news that's fit to print")  leaves out such relevant information. I guess it is not "fit" to print. 



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/25 05:57 by joemvcnj.

joemvcnj Wrote:
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>This NYT puff piece
> leaves out such relevant information. 

Imagine that. 
Big city newspaper confusing copying and pasting a happy talk press release with reporting.

Here is an early menu from that terminal restaurant.  Through WWII it was operated by the Lackawanna's dining car department.  In later years it was operated as an outside concession.  Not sure of what year it finally closed, but it was gone before the EL merger in 1960.

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The main dining room was in business as late as 1957 when it was described in America's  Ferryboats as a lavish restaurant with polished wood from and wonderful views.

Theodore Scull mentions this on page 38 of his Hoboken's Lackawanna Terminal book.

Posted from Android



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/25 09:32 by Lackawanna484.

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As NJT makes Hoboken Terminal harder and harder to
> get to without any public notice. Over the last
> few years, 4 rush hour Montclair trains have been
> diverted to NYPS. Of the 3 remaining (there were
> once 6) Long Branch Coast Line trains, 1 more has
> been discontinued, and 2 others have been diverted
> to NYPS. So now they are down 7 pairs of rush hour
> trains.  Far more trains were cut in 2008 and
> 2009 from the M&E and Raritan line. One
> convenience store that had some take out fast food
> has been shuttered. There is nothing left but a
> Dunkin. There is also a vagrancy problem in the
> men's room. NY Waterway charges $9.50 for a ferry
> ride with a senior discount of a whole dollar.
> They are quire irrelevant. PATH is $3. 
>
All the diesel side trains still go there...so thats NJNY, Bergen county and Main Line trains.   I also thought the ran a shuttle train from HOB to Newark-DLW, so passengers could transfer from midtown direct trains. ??

I thought running Raritan and NJCL trains thru to HOB was a good idea, but apparently ridership to HOB was low?

You still see a TON of ppl transferring to PATH at Newark=Penn in the rush hour.  Thats still a lot faster than taking the train to HOB, and then transferring to PATH.   PATH to wall street is a straight shot without many stops.

Sounds great !

Attached is from the February 1901 issue of the Official Guide announcing the opening.

---

pdt Wrote:

> All the diesel side trains still go there...so
> thats NJNY, Bergen county and Main Line
> trains.   I also thought the ran a shuttle train
> from HOB to Newark-DLW, so passengers could
> transfer from midtown direct trains. ??

Weekends, a train runs back and forth every 2 hours between Bay Street, Montclair and Hoboken. That is all the M&E service there is.

> I thought running Raritan and NJCL trains thru to
> HOB was a good idea, but apparently ridership to
> HOB was low?

Weekend Raritan ridership was low, but NJCL patronage rush hours was not. 

> You still see a TON of ppl transferring to PATH at
> Newark=Penn in the rush hour.  Thats still a lot
> faster than taking the train to HOB, and then
> transferring to PATH.   PATH to wall street is a
> straight shot without many stops.

PATH Newark trains are cattle trains. That's why people chose to go to Hoboken first. People also work in Exchange Place, which is a relocated Wall Street now. There's also HBLRT at Hoboken to go to Newport and Exchange Place which can be ridden by a NJT commuter train pass for free. 

Hoboken is also a work-around from all the problems between Newark and NY Penn Station, which is a daily occurrence. With all the meltdowns last summer, NJT still chose to forget that line exists.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/17/25 16:33 by joemvcnj.

As a resident of Chatham, NJ from 1955 through 1960, I made many, MANY trips on the train and driving to Hoboken. I had many DL&W employees that befriended and mentored me, towards my future career in railroading. Even though my mother did NOT want me to go to work for the DL&W upon graduation from high school and forced me to go to college and get a "good job", I still cherish my trips to Hoboken and the grilled Taylor Pork Roll sandwich on the local hard roll, in then small restaurant in the terminal.

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As NJT makes Hoboken Terminal harder and harder to
> get to without any public notice. Over the last
> few years, 4 rush hour Montclair trains have been
> diverted to NYPS. Of the 3 remaining (there were
> once 6) Long Branch Coast Line trains, 1 more has
> been discontinued, and 2 others have been diverted
> to NYPS. So now they are down 7 pairs of rush hour
> trains.  Far more trains were cut in 2008 and
> 2009 from the M&E and Raritan line. One
> convenience store that had some take out fast food
> has been shuttered. There is nothing left but a
> Dunkin. There is also a vagrancy problem in the
> men's room. NY Waterway charges $9.50 for a ferry
> ride with a senior discount of a whole dollar.
> They are quire irrelevant. PATH is $3. 
>
>  This NYT puff piece ("all the news that's fit to
> print")  leaves out such relevant information. I
> guess it is not "fit" to print. 

The article's focus is on the renovation of a space in Hoboken Terminal, not commuter rail service to this station or the number of riders using the station.  In fact, the article states:

The renovated upper level is not expected to appeal as much to regular commuters as it is to a new crowd with money to spend enjoying meals, drinks and entertainment on the waterfront, Mr. Singh said.

If you want to call it a "puff piece," that's on you.  I found the article both interesting and enjoyable to read.  It was definitely not my expectation that this article should discuss the amount of train service to the Hoboken Terminal.  I can find that out going to NJ Transit's website.

Englewood Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> joemvcnj Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >This NYT puff piece
> > leaves out such relevant information. 
>
> Imagine that. 
> Big city newspaper confusing copying and pasting a happy talk press release with reporting.

I have read enough press releases to know that stylistically there is a huge difference between what a newspaper publishes and how a press release reads.  Additionally, I checked the websites for the City of Hoboken, NJ Transit and LCOR, the developer.  None of them had a press release announcing this project.

So, Englewood, who issued the press release???  

 

This is a vanity project on an historical building that has little if anything to do with better public transportation. It is for "goal was to create a “contemporary event and exhibition space” that could serve as an anchor for the community. "
 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/18/25 03:25 by joemvcnj.

The upper level space has been mostly vacant for 50+ years.  I'm glad to see that somebody is making an effort to improve it, and put it to use. The presence of a 20 story apartment building alongside suggests what could be the alternative.

I'm sure NJ Transit fields inquiries about knocking  down the whole place and building skyscrapers along the shore line. As was done just south at Pavonia, once the Erie terminal. And at Harborside, farther south, which was once the Pennsylvania Railroad's exchange between steam trains and ferries.

Convenient and perhaps a good view for an indoor venue space and also re-development into an apartment building of sorts. But directly related to that would be a terminal that offers good rail service to/from the complex, and hence the need for more NJT commuter trains to be routed there, as once was, as opposed to what is not. Need to take the blinders off on this one. I welcome the upgrading, but also the return of more people to enjoy the renovated terminal, especially to draw in businesses that could operate from the facility. The renovation needs to come with a way to attract more riders/visitors/commuters, and that's directly related to having more public transit service - e.g. NJT Train Service.

That said, what often stymies the throughput of Raritan Valley and NJCL commuter trains to Hoboken is the "connection" to the ex-PRR Hi-Line to the NEC. This involves a navigating a bunch of cross overs with various cross traffic. The eastbound waterfront connection does its job well, but westbound is a bit more cumbersome. Was hoping this could be fixed with the saw-tooth bridge replacement and overall capacity improvements being undertaken between NYP and Newark. But I don't think it will. And that's in the wake of other "great master plans" to get more trains to a newly renovated Hoboken Terminal. 

But then again, I am sure this deviates from the OP, but again, the restoration of Hoboken Terminal is surely capitalizing on the fact that it has a source of direct public transportation and access. That's key for any renovation, especially if grant money is involved. The last renovation done to the interior of Hoboken Terminal was done very nicely, or at least on the first floor from what I experienced. It's such a unique station/terminal and is a throwback in time without high level platforms and canopied platforms to board/de-board trains.

I used Hoboken Terminal a few times as my "escape route" from NYC when the ex-PRR Hi-Line was out of service!!! It was often a throw-back in time to a degree!

Back in the 1920s and 1930s, the Hoboken rail terminal was the nexus of many transportation modes. Hudson & Manhattan tubes underneath, multiple streetcar lines alongside, the streetcar up the trestle to the heights, multiple ferryboat destinations, etc.

Hoboken has become a magnet for young families, affluent single people, etc. The shot and a beer joints, the Clam Broth House and many other dives have been replaced by $50 entree restaurants and clubs. I can see this new project being a huge success.

I am not familiar with New Jersey so of course I do not know what I am talking about. However my natural curiosity ask whether the rail lines that go to Hoboken in the mid to long term could become corridors of development for residential, commercial, and industrial development that could support mainly intrastate passenger travel? Seems like to me such an amenity as as a fine restaurant would help with the redevelopment of the area.

ts1457 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I am not familiar with New Jersey so of course I
> do not know what I am talking about. However my
> natural curiosity ask whether the rail lines that
> go to Hoboken in the mid to long term could become
> corridors of development for residential,
> commercial, and industrial development that could
> support mainly intrastate passenger travel? Seems
> like to me such an amenity as as a fine restaurant
> would help with the redevelopment of the area.

The traditional Erie and Lackawanna lines that run into Hoboken are already well developed. Basically commuters into lower Manhattan still prefer to go to Hoboken and take either the PATH trains to the World Trade Center or the ferry to World Financial.  In recent years there are also commuters transferring to the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail to the many "back office" operations in Jersey City.  Trains into Penn Station serve commuters going to midtown Manhattan.  It is more practical to go to Hoboken if your end destination is lower Manhattan.

njmidland Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ts1457 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I am not familiar with New Jersey so of course
> I
> > do not know what I am talking about. However my
> > natural curiosity ask whether the rail lines
> that
> > go to Hoboken in the mid to long term could
> become
> > corridors of development for residential,
> > commercial, and industrial development that
> could
> > support mainly intrastate passenger travel?
> Seems
> > like to me such an amenity as as a fine
> restaurant
> > would help with the redevelopment of the area.
>
> The traditional Erie and Lackawanna lines that run
> into Hoboken are already well developed. Basically
> commuters into lower Manhattan still prefer to go
> to Hoboken and take either the PATH trains to the
> World Trade Center or the ferry to World
> Financial.  In recent years there are also
> commuters transferring to the Hudson-Bergen Light
> Rail to the many "back office" operations in
> Jersey City.  Trains into Penn Station serve
> commuters going to midtown Manhattan.  It is more
> practical to go to Hoboken if your end destination
> is lower Manhattan.

And with that said, I think its potential is still GREAT and that it has even MORE potential than what most give it credit for. When they do divert trains to Hoboken, because of issues with the Hudson River tunnels etc., that station comes back to life tenfold with packed trains and a huge hustle and bustle of activity. 

In the "old days" like the 1979s and 1980s, all 17 platform tracks were in use. As one train pulled out, another was waiting outside the stub end terminal to pull in.  It was a very busy place.  I'm sure it was even busier pre-1966 when trains to the Sussex branch, Washington NJ, Greenwood Lake, Nyack, etc shared space with the long distance trains.