Passenger Trains > Amfleet and LD order

There is an interesting story on trains.com regarding the disposition of Amfleet cars, and the LD order is also mentioned in the story.  A couple of things struck me.  

1.  Amtrak seems to be in a big hurry to get rid of the Amfleet cars.  They want them scrapped, not sold.  Cannot have any competition, I guess.  It seems to me that hanging onto a number of them for times of peak demand would make sense.  We have seen how constrained Amtrak is on equipment, so why scrap them all?  But I am sure they will.

2.  The size of the LD order is paltry.  160 cars.  I understand that does not include sleepers or diners, but come on.  It should be doubled, in my humble opinion.  Allegedly the order will include spares.  I guess I am disappointed that this outfit cannot think bigger.  They only do what they are told to do.  But I should be used to that by now.

Here is the link:  https://www.trains.com/pro/mechanical/passenger-cars/amtrak-issues-information-request-for-eventual-scrapping-of-amfleet-cars/

That article ask more questions than it answers. I swear trains is getting as bad as the National Enquirer with the quality their reporting.

DutchDragon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That article ask more questions than it answers. I
> swear trains is getting as bad as the National
> Enquirer with the quality their reporting.
Yes Trains magazine is in an extra downsizing mode now. I recently decided to subscribe to Railfan to compare. 

Chessie1963 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is an interesting story on trains.com
> regarding the disposition of Amfleet cars, and the
> LD order is also mentioned in the story.  A
> couple of things struck me.  
>
> 1.  Amtrak seems to be in a big hurry to get rid
> of the Amfleet cars.  They want them scrapped,
> not sold.  Cannot have any competition, I guess.
>  It seems to me that hanging onto a number of
> them for times of peak demand would make sense.
>  We have seen how constrained Amtrak is on
> equipment, so why scrap them all?  But I am sure
> they will.
>

Admittedly, I am much more into the freight side of things than passenger. Freight cars have an FRA-mandated 50-year service life to be used in interchange service between railroads. Anything older than that can be used in captive service (such as work trains).

I pose this because I honestly don't know what the equivalent regulation is for passenger cars. I've been seeing Amfleet cars since I began watching trains in 1985. If there is a mandated service life they have to approaching it.

Another thing I could see is Amtrak certainly seems to be run with a "by lawyers for lawyers" mentality. Is it possible they don't want the liability of selling old equipment to other operators on the chance some catastrophic structural failure occurs and causes an accident? "You sold us outdated faulty equipment."

Posted from Android

UP951West Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> DutchDragon Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > That article ask more questions than it answers.
> I
> > swear trains is getting as bad as the National
> > Enquirer with the quality their reporting.
> Yes Trains magazine is in an extra downsizing mode
> now. I recently decided to subscribe to Railfan to
> compare. 

That's almost going to be apples and oranges. Firecrown (Trains) is run by a former trucking industry executive who decided to branch out into other surface modes. Railfan is run by, well, railfans.

Firecrown is all about industry analysis and data, quick news for "professionals on the go." I'd expect this is more and more where Trains will go. And I expect the print version is going somewhere in the not so distant future-- Digital.

Railfan is by railfans for railfans. The news is a bit dated but will be quite different than what interests Firecrown, such as revised and abolished train schedules.

Posted from Android

Meanwhile, VIA Rail will run their HEP cars until they are 70 - 75 years old. 

Amtrak wants to ensure frequencies and consists even on Corridors can never expand, unless they hit states to buy their own Airo trains.  



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/25 05:57 by joemvcnj.

Glad to see so many of my fellow fans are beginning to share my very low
opinion of AmManagement.  Congratulations--you are no longer blind.

It's obvious to me that AmManagement is not planning for growth--even on the NEC

The new inter-city equipment coming--after considering the immediate scrapping
of Amfleet cars--"nets out" to no capacity increase at all.  Thus, no possibility of growth.

The biggest "Red Flag" is the lack of orders for LD trains--no orders for LD coaches,
sleepers, diners, or.lounges.  Remember the now forgotten BS about sending out
request to 10 builders?  Statements like this just fade into the fog.

.




 

ronald321 Wrote:

> The biggest "Red Flag" is the lack of orders for
> LD trains--no orders for LD coaches,
> sleepers, diners, or.lounges.  Remember the now
> forgotten BS about sending out
> request to 10 builders?  Statements like this
> just fade into the fog.

Amtrak didn't "send out" requests to 10 bidders. Amtrak issued an RFP and approximately that many RESPONDED to the RFP with proposals. Many of them were quickly ruled out because of past issues with other equipment they supplied, or because there was little faith they could comply with the proposal requirements.

bioyans Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Many of them
> were quickly ruled out because of past issues with
> other equipment they supplied, or because there
> was little faith they could comply with the
> proposal requirements.

No more Siemens ?

Englewood Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> bioyans Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Many of them
> > were quickly ruled out because of past issues
> with
> > other equipment they supplied, or because there
> > was little faith they could comply with the
> > proposal requirements.
>
> No more Siemens ?

I seem to remember Kawasaki POSSIBLY mentioned as one of them, but I'm no longer in the loop on those goings-on. I was shown the list of builders who responded, but little details beyond that.

Kawasaki has their hands full with NYCT car orders for the rest of the decade, now with a R268, which is really an extension of R211's.I don't know what else they can do. 

ronald321 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Glad to see so many of my fellow fans are
> beginning to share my very low
> opinion of AmManagement.  Congratulations--you
> are no longer blind.
>
> It's obvious to me that AmManagement is not
> planning for growth--even on the NEC
>
> The new inter-city equipment coming--after
> considering the immediate scrapping
> of Amfleet cars--"nets out" to no capacity
> increase at all.  Thus, no possibility of
> growth.
>
> The biggest "Red Flag" is the lack of orders for
> LD trains--no orders for LD coaches,
> sleepers, diners, or.lounges.  Remember the now
> forgotten BS about sending out
> request to 10 builders?  Statements like this
> just fade into the fog.
>
> .
>
>
>
>
>  

The initial Airo order is 562 cars replacing 514 Amfleets/Metroliners so yes there’s some growth. In addition to that there’s still 130 Airo trainset options that can be picked up. Even going with just the 6 car sets means an additional 780 cars. Also the announcement for the long distance order was pushed to early next year so of course they haven’t announced anything yet.

As for the 50 year thing....you can rebuild ANY car ad infinitum....but the AAR settled on 40 or 50 years partly to keep new cars in production...one hand washes the other you see...passenger cars can run forever if you keep rebuilding them....if you can keep rebuilding....yes they may become ships of Theseus...but as long as they work that don't matter...I don't understand Amtrak and it's approach to equipment...it seems they don't understand they are RUNNING A RAILROAD.....but then....maybe that's too hard...

bioyans Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Englewood Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > bioyans Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Many of them
> > > were quickly ruled out because of past issues
> > with
> > > other equipment they supplied, or because
> there
> > > was little faith they could comply with the
> > > proposal requirements.
> >
> > No more Siemens ?
>
> I seem to remember Kawasaki POSSIBLY mentioned as
> one of them, but I'm no longer in the loop on
> those goings-on. I was shown the list of builders
> who responded, but little details beyond that.

I’ve heard it’s 3 left, likely Alstom, Stadler, and Siemens. Stadler does have a single level car design for Azerbaijan that could become the basis for an Amfleet II replacement.

ShortlinesUSA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Admittedly, I am much more into the freight side
> of things than passenger. Freight cars have an
> FRA-mandated 50-year service life to be used in
> interchange service between railroads. Anything
> older than that can be used in captive service
> (such as work trains).
>
> I pose this because I honestly don't know what the
> equivalent regulation is for passenger cars. I've
> been seeing Amfleet cars since I began watching
> trains in 1985. If there is a mandated service
> life they have to approaching it.
>
Per Federal Transit Administration guidance, after 30 years rail cars (light rail vehicles, heavy rail cars, commuter rail cars) are eligible for replacement with federal funds.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/25 08:24 by RuleG.

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Kawasaki has their hands full with NYCT car orders
> for the rest of the decade, now with a R268, which
> is really an extension of R211's.I don't know what
> else they can do. 

I should add that I believe Kawasaki was one of the ones that was quickly ruled out as a serious contender. My bad for not making that part clear.

Posted from Android

ronald321 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Glad to see so many of my fellow fans are
> beginning to share my very low
> opinion of AmManagement.  Congratulations--you
> are no longer blind.
>
> It's obvious to me that AmManagement is not
> planning for growth--even on the NEC
>
> The new inter-city equipment coming--after
> considering the immediate scrapping
> of Amfleet cars--"nets out" to no capacity
> increase at all.  Thus, no possibility of
> growth.
>
> The biggest "Red Flag" is the lack of orders for
> LD trains--no orders for LD coaches,
> sleepers, diners, or.lounges.  Remember the now
> forgotten BS about sending out
> request to 10 builders?  Statements like this
> just fade into the fog.
>
> .
>

Why plan for growth if it's not certain if funding will be provided? Congress controls Amtrak's growth not managment.  

engineerinvirginia Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't understand Amtrak and it's
> approach to equipment...it seems they don't
> understand they are RUNNING A RAILROAD.....but
> then....maybe that's too hard...

=========================

It has been a long time since Amtrak was run as a railroad. It is now run as a bureaucracy. Its prime function is to perpetuate itself, hire as many workers as it can, suck up as much subsidy money as it can, and pay executive bonuses.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/25 09:41 by GenePoon.

portlander Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ronald321 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Glad to see so many of my fellow fans are
> > beginning to share my very low
> > opinion of AmManagement.  Congratulations--you
> > are no longer blind.
> >
> > It's obvious to me that AmManagement is not
> > planning for growth--even on the NEC
> >
> > The new inter-city equipment coming--after
> > considering the immediate scrapping
> > of Amfleet cars--"nets out" to no capacity
> > increase at all.  Thus, no possibility of
> > growth.
> >
> > The biggest "Red Flag" is the lack of orders
> for
> > LD trains--no orders for LD coaches,
> > sleepers, diners, or.lounges.  Remember the
> now
> > forgotten BS about sending out
> > request to 10 builders?  Statements like this
> > just fade into the fog.
> >
> > .
> >
>
> Why plan for growth if it's not certain if funding
> will be provided? Congress controls Amtrak's
> growth not managment.  

Because Congress is planning for growth(Corridor ID and Long Distance study)

ShortlinesUSA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Railfan is by railfans for railfans. The news is a
> bit dated but will be quite different than what
> interests Firecrown, such as revised and abolished
> train schedules.
>
That's true about Raifan.  Whatever flaws there are with Trains, Raifan does not provide coverage of Amtrak topics comparable to Trains articles.