Passenger Trains > Dark Territory

LIRR runs scheduled passenger service in dark territory on the main line between Ronkonkoma and Greenport.  The segment west of Riverhead also has freight traffic.  Is there any other example of mixed passenger and freight in dark territory with no PTC?

East of Ronkonkoma does not have PTC, but does have PTC regulations. One being if two passenger trains are in Greenport simultaneously, such as on summer Fridays, the rule is first in/last out, meaning the first arriving train cannot leave until the second arrival train has departed and has cleared Riverhead, the next block limit to the west.

There are freight trains west of Riverhead.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/26 05:49 by joemvcnj.

Dont know how it is now, but used to be PRR style Manual Block system.   One train per block at a time.  There used to be the 
illumiated PRR style block limit signs, that looked like they went back to the oil lamp days.  Somewhere along the line they were replaced with the cheap ass ugly PC/CR type square sheet metal signs. 
There probably was a PRR style MBS position light signal at the east end of ronkonkoma once upon a time. 

Life is different on "The Island".
Go

SpeederDriver Wrote:
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> LIRR runs scheduled passenger service in dark
> territory on the main line between Ronkonkoma and
> Greenport.  The segment west of Riverhead also
> has freight traffic.  Is there any other example
> of mixed passenger and freight in dark territory
> with no PTC?

The CT River Line north of Springfield, The Downeaster, Zephyr Route between Grand Jct and some place to name a few. The FRA was giving out exemptions for something like 5 round trips a day or fewer on lines with minimal freight.

mbrotzman Wrote:

> The CT River Line north of Springfield, The
> Downeaster, Zephyr Route between Grand Jct and
> some place to name a few. The FRA was giving out
> exemptions for something like 5 round trips a day
> or fewer on lines with minimal freight.

Grand Jct - Helper, UT.
Maybe, not sure, a portion of the LSL route east of Cleveland to where CSX trains transition from the B&O to the NYC. 
Where on the Downeaster route ?

joemvcnj Wrote:
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> Where on the Downeaster route ?

All of it under Guilford, not sure of the present status.

49 CFR 236.1019 gives automatic exemptions that would allow for segments like the connector in Cleveleland. 

No more that four passenger trains per day and under 15 million gross tons of freight traffic.

The signals west of Grand Junction has been removed?

The Empire Builder traverses a short stretch of the Minnesota Commercial Railway to switch from CPKC to BNSF.  If memory serves, it is dark, yard-limits territory. 

Tss515 Wrote:
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> The Empire Builder traverses a short stretch of
> the Minnesota Commercial Railway to switch from
> CPKC to BNSF.  If memory serves, it is dark,
> yard-limits territory. 

Yeah - and this is ALWAYS a pain in the neck. 

jp1822 Wrote:
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> Tss515 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The Empire Builder traverses a short stretch of
> > the Minnesota Commercial Railway to switch from
> > CPKC to BNSF.  If memory serves, it is dark,
> > -limits territory. 
>
> Yeah - and this is ALWAYS a pain in the neck. 

It wouldn't be quite so mind boggling if you could look at the satellite view and discern at least ONE route through the yard that could be considered "main track," but no. 

The original Floridian used 300 miles of dark territory between Montgomery and Waycross. That might have been the single longest segment of dark territory that Amtrak ever ran over. Way before PTC, of course. 

ctillnc Wrote:
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> The original Floridian used 300 miles of dark
> territory between Montgomery and Waycross. That
> might have been the single longest segment of dark
> territory that Amtrak ever ran over. Way before
> PTC, of course. 

Wow. Dark territory is 49 mph max, right? Six hours. I can see why they cancelled that train. 

Tss515 Wrote:
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> ctillnc Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The original Floridian used 300 miles of dark
> > territory between Montgomery and Waycross. That
> > might have been the single longest segment of
> dark
> > territory that Amtrak ever ran over. Way before
> > PTC, of course. 
>
> Wow. Dark territory is 49 mph max, right? Six
> hours. I can see why they cancelled that train. 

Dark territory is 49 MPH maximum for freight, 59 MPH maximum for passenger.

The New England Central from White River Jct , VT to St Albans VT hosts the VERMONTER in dark territory, while from Whitehall, NY to Rutland, VT to Burlington, VT so does the Vermont Rail System with the ETHAN ALLEN EXPRESS. Freight service is active on all this mileage. White River Jct, VT south to Springfield, MA has signals, but no PTC. Both freight and passenger trains run here. The VERMONTER is supplemented Greenfield, MA to Springfield, MA by the VALLEY FLYER trains. South of Springfield signals are PTC are in use all the way to NYP and WAS.

timz Wrote:
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> The signals west of Grand Junction has been
> removed?

Don't think so.

Jim

 

timz Wrote:
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> The signals west of Grand Junction has been
> removed?

No. The UP exD&RGW route Amtrak uses is CTC and PTC from Salt Lake City to Mounds, Utah, which is where the Sunnyside branch ties in south of Wellington. Mounds to Grand Jct. Is CTC, no PTC. BSB

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> Dark territory is 49 MPH maximum for freight, 59 MPH maximum for passenger.

Correct, and at the time the Montgomery-Waycross subdivisions were good for 59 mph the entire way.