Passenger Trains > Amtrak Release of the Long Distance Fleet Replacement - Designs

I am surprised this hasn't come forth.......From the Empire State Passenger Rail's website. VERY interesting designs!!!

"Amtrak has released the complete Long Distance Fleet Replacement Request for Proposal (RFP) through a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request."

• The entire RFP release is over 2,500 pages and contains hundreds of pages of highly detailed technical & mechanical specifications.
• The release also includes over 340 pages of newly available images, graphics, details and descriptions of the passenger accommodations, services & facilities Amtrak is seeking for the new Long Distance fleet.

LINK to document file

I presume this is accurate and for real.

As expected, I am disappointed by the lack of lounge space - think CA Zephyr, Coast Starlight. or Empire Builder and the need for lounge space as the train meanders through the scenic portions of the trip. The lounge is split between half dining car and half lounge section despite the Western Long Hauls having PACKED capacity as it is in Superliner Sightseer Lounge Cars at present and peak season.   

After all, these are just design concepts. Hopefully more space is allocated to "the lounge portion" and that "optional double row of windows" for the cafe car come to be, as that could help compensate for the lounge space (e.g. sleeper lounge and coach lounge being the cafe car?). The "inward facing" lounge seating is not as desirable as seats that face OUT to the windows, like you have on the Superliner Sightseer Lounge Cars. But for the designers - a good utilization of space????

Overall, there is lots to like, in general, and I am glad Amtrak inter-mixed certain design concepts from the bi-level proposal to "fix" the original "single level proposal." This is BETTER than the original single level LD design proposal.

The Club Bedrooms (or bedrooms) as we know them today, seem to be a bit few in quantity, while trains roaming the system now have 5 to 10 bedrooms (compared to 4 to 8 that are proposed). What we know as bedrooms have been declining in number over the years, when demand seems to dictate that passengers prefer the bedrooms. Heritage sleepers had six bedrooms. Superliners have 5 bedrooms. Viewliners have 2 bedrooms - per car. This proposal introduces two ADA bedrooms per sleeper car, coupled with four bedrooms (in like terms to the past). Better than a Viewliner, but still not comparable to a Heritage Sleeper, and still not comparable to an "all-bedroom car." Likewise, the traditional family bedroom is gone, being combined or sold as a Club Bedroom - that COULD sleep more than two people - in a VERY snug environment though!!!! Meanwhile, current Amtrak sleeping cars roam the system with one (not two) ADA Handicap Rooms. This design introduces at least two to four ADA Handicap Rooms. I am NOT knocking this, but IS the demand for ADA bedrooms this high? Granted people will stretch the rules to book an ADA room, so perhaps that's the saving grace in this? And as I have stated - I was in a mobility issue where I did have to book handicap ADA rooms in the past, but do the demand numbers back up the the allocation Amtrak is proposing?  

I do applaud greatly the fact that Amtrak has made a sleeper that combines "solo rooms" (that can be combined) with roomettes. An all roomette/solo bed sleeper - this looks VERY appealing and should do REALLY well. The solo rooms look great, as do the roomettes - good amount. I just think the Club Bedrooms - or bedrooms as we know them today, are lacking in number. If Amtrak put in an option for an "all-Club Bedroom Sleeper" - this would be appeased for the Western Long Haul high demand routes.

Again, just a draft design format from what I can tell, but the lack of lounge space and the imagination therein in its design, compare to what the current Superliner Sightseer Lounge offers, seems to be lacking. A full cafe car - which is there, plus a full diner which is there, but having a full lounge car would be the more ideal situation, along with an "all-bedroom sleeper." As I've said before - the solo and roomette car combination is pretty brilliant - I will give credit to Amtrak on that one!!! And the coaches look like they offer a low density and high density option, which should be included. That I will also give Amtrak credit for, as it is a way to offer different upgrade and revenue channels, overall. LD trains take on corridor and overnight LD form in their 750+ journeys. This design does allow for more "options" for the coach passenger.  

Please hold the criticism on me and my comments - still processing all. Saw it this morning. Just my first pass without digging in too deeply. And I am sure things will change over time. But I would HOPE all changes are for the better, and continuous attention is given to allow for double rows of windows and a retirement of all gun-slat windows. Windows and wrap around windows are absolutely KEY for LD trains in single level design!!!!!! Greater wrap-around windows for the "lounge" would be of greater demand!!!!! 

Can't help to notice that it looks a little "Siemens" oriented.........

Overall, not a bad concept, if some tweaks are made, especially considering that passengers will be using said train for more than just a single night "eastern" journey. I worry about how this meets western demands - lounge and "Club Bedrooms." All too familiar about how Amtrak had to sacrifice full bedrooms in the Viewliner designer to meet a reduced production line and hence more roomettes were added to make up and cover the capacity. 

no domes nothing for me to get exicted about, lets go back to 1930s designs, single level cars, at least they aren't semi permanently coupled

dan Wrote:
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> no domes nothing for me to get exicted about, lets
> go back to 1930s designs, single level cars, at
> least they aren't semi permanently coupled

As I commented last week - I think it is a BIG ASK for Amtrak to get a dome car on a LD consist. It'd be great!!!! And I do believe Amtrak can learn from single level car designs of the past. VIA Rail will pursue Dome cars as they have maintained that service option, which is practically demanded by their passengers. Less so with Amtrak. Amtrak wold also likely argue that a Dome Car will produce no revenue value - yet Amtrak has no imagination as to how it COULD create a superior amenity and upcharge!!!!

These concepts do seem to have more flexibility, but the fact that there's practically a "twin diner" type style in the middle of an "example" train set, makes me wonder if Amtrak still has to look at a "central core" and ensure the proper ADA and other "service" passage between train cars - at the middle (core) of the single level LD design. Can this train set NOT be semi-permanently coupled considering the design factor is to get a wheel chair between the "coaches" through the "service cars" and even to the ADA sleeper." Additional design work and time will tell. Amtrak lost EXTREMELY valuable time by not coming to this conclusion of a design concept sooner........Sad.....but true........Lets hope this design adds more flexibility overall. That I agree with, as well as an elimination to permanently coupled cars. That just doesn't work either. This single level "sample train set" can also likely split and combine better for trains like the Sunset Limited, Lake Shore Limited, and Empire Builder, which is key to their survival......

I know all of this is preliminary, but the lack of lounge car space for a western train is laughable. Think about how hard it is to get seats in a Superliner lounge now on most of the trains, especially in the highly scenic areas. Amtrak wants to whittle this down to just 30 seats? "We're making the trains worth traveling again."

The entire diner is accessible.  That is great.  However, that means a wider aisle, which means smaller seating space on the benches.  Meanwhile Americans grow wider every day.

If these concepts represent the typical trainset size and if I am doing this right here are the relative capacities:

(9) car Superliner Consist 318 Total = 222 People in Coach and 96 People in Sleeper  (1) Baggage, (3) coaches, (1) Lounge, (1) Diner, (2) Sleepers, (1) Sleeper-Crew
(11) car Single Level Consist 229 Total = 153 People in Coach and 76 People in Sleeper (1) Baggage/Crew, (3) Coaches, (1) Cafe, (1) Diner/Kitchen, (1) Diner/Lounge, (2) Accessible Sleepers, (2) Standard Sleepers

Perhaps there will be more cars than 11? The new standard sleepers only have room for 26 people each, Viewliner IIs are 28.

A few days ago I presented the LDSCAC concept, of a NEC Compatible Split-level "Core Accessible Car" with Accessible Sleepers on lower level, Lounge, Dome upper level, and Bar with a simple jack-screw lift. Assuming for a minute the same consist size, there could be (3) of these Dome Lounges- (2) of which would have sleepers rooms on the lower level, yielding a a revenue capacity of (16) in Sleeping cars without the need for 32" aisle ways along the bedroom corridors and (1) would be a dome-diner. This would match the lounge space and leave (7) revenue cars for the same size consist.

So with the LDSCAC NEC Domes one could have in the same sized consist:
(3) coaches at 60/33 people each = 153 People in Coaches
(4) Full 12 Bedroom Sleepers at 24 each = 96 People + 16 from Domes = 112 People in Sleepers. They would all be in Bedrooms though, so (56) Bedrooms instead of (8) bedrooms in the Amtrak single level consist.

Total capacity of a 11 Car Single level consist, with the (3) LDSCACs, and (7) revenue cars would be 265 Total per single level train. But the LDSCAC lounges could support another (2-3) revenue cars. A Slumbercoach could be a 12th car, adding 36 Single rooms, but for now I am just trying to match the consist size. I assumed a crew/baggage as per the layout. At most a 14 car single level consist could fit on a 1050 LF platform at once, so if to the 11 cars, one added (1) Slumbercoach, (1) Coach, and (1) Sleeper - the total capacity for a 14 car single level train could be 385 Total People. 

Oh - and Amtrak hasn't even designed a connection that would allow a wheelchair to navigate between coupled cars - this whole accessible path thing down the train is just pretend.



Edited 12 time(s). Last edit at 05/06/26 19:50 by SouthernDistrict.

jp1822 Wrote:
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> I am surprised this hasn't come forth.......

https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,6171155

Chessie1963 Wrote:
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> The entire diner is accessible.  That is great.
>  However, that means a wider aisle, which means
> smaller seating space on the benches.  Meanwhile
> Americans grow wider every day.

Given the fact you can’t make train cars any wider inside, trying to make the whole train handicapped accessible is just a pipe dream with a lot of downsides. It’s good intentions for sure but it’s really not practical. The dining car tables are really narrow now for two people side-by-side. Take away a few more inches and they’re going to be a joke. I don’t think it’s even safe to have people roaming the train in a wheelchair. They’re gonna be banging into peoples arms and hands when they go through the coaches. The train jerks and lurches around which adds more hazard to the whole thing. As for sleepers, if they make the aisle wider, the rooms will become ridiculously small. They’re already unacceptable to many passengers. It’s just not a good idea on many levels and it’s going to steal space away from the 99.5% of passengers on the train who don’t need to use a wheelchair on board. I’m totally for giving handicapped people easy access both for coach and sleeper. But this is going overboard given the space constraints. As the final note, the capacity of these trains is going to be a joke compared to a superliner train with the same number of cars. That’s going to really destroy the economics of the long distance trains even more. In fact when the super liners came out, they said they were the savior of the long haul trains in the west. Does anybody at Amtrak realize that their costs are going to go through the roof with this new equipment? The effort to appease well under 1% of the passengers at the expense of the entire operation financially, and comfort of everybody else on board is insanity. This is not going to end well folks. And considering that Via Rail is using cars built in 1954 and still satisfying passengers very nicely makes me ask the question why can’t they just refurbish the superliners thoroughly, and use them for another couple of decades? Less equipment and operating cost, less crew members needed , less maintenance cost, higher capacity. Better passenger comfort.

Posted from iPhone



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/06/26 19:01 by alan2955.

Haven’t had time to look at proposals yet. Just some free association thoughts.

Don’t understand why the HUGE issue with an articulated car; not a complete train, but a dinner or lounge set- 2 or 3 cars LIKE IN THE GOOD OLD DAYS. LOL.

Agree that club cars and Domes are a must for the LD’s.

I’m just afraid knowing the last 55 years of Amjoke history that the new cars will be half assed and badly thought out.

Please, Amjoke, prove me wrong.

Regards

Posted from iPhone

4 coaches and 3 sleepers max out a Superliner diner.  I.e. 10 cars plus the baggage.
Single level cars, with Superliner equivalent  ADA provisions, have 2/3 the capacity of Superliners. 
A train with equivalent capacity requires 6 coaches and 5 sleepers, Also an additional diner/lounge car.
resulting in a 16 car train.
Unlimited wheelchair roaming though-out the train, further reduces capacity by another 1/3.
19 cars are required to equal an 11 car Superliner train.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the platforms at St Paul, Denver, and Salt Lake City only hold 12 cars plus locos?
 

death knell for western long s distance with this equipment,   worse for sight seeing,   crew costs increase stay the same while productivity tanks 50%, each axle bearing is a lot less productive, still has the same cost spread out among fewer passengers, so they tweaked the design and want to shove 60 folks in a non ada coach nice

Anyone have a link to the full/massive RFP?
-dc

Very interesting and informative , thanks for posting this !

At least they can potentially hook up 3 common use, or "non revenue" cars together. They have the cafe car, the Diner lounge, and the Diner with a kitchen and a few tables.

Tom Loftus
Omaha, NE

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The roomette cars won't be accessible so there will probably be the same room as now

Posted from Android

It has been noted that the dining car seats are narrower than Superliner.  
Also The coaches are shown with a 41 1/2 in seat pitch.  (space seat center to seat center.)
This is day coach spacing.  Superliners have at least a 50 inch seat pitch.
The coaches would have a 48 seat capacity at 52 inches.
The double bedrooms are more cramped account the 32" aisle. 
The beds are lengthwise giving a less comfortable ride while sleeping. 
And the rooms are less spacious.

so three car to do the work of three cars, as is the western  trains are mere shadows of the 90's amtrak consists

It looks to me like that 11-car consist is just put forth for basic demonstration purposes. If 800 cars are coming and if Amtrak is thinking of having three food service cars per train, it sounds to me like they're thinking in terms of 14- to 18-car peak-season long-distance trains and probably a daily Sunset and Cardinal. That's figuring at least ten percent out of service at any one time for required maintenance (I know, that's probably optimisic). The whole thing surprises me. And I really hope the semi-permanent coupling is gone. I'm also worried about too many electronic bells and whistles raising costs unnecessarily and complicating maintenance.

longliveSP Wrote:
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> jp1822 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I am surprised this hasn't come forth.......
>
> https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,
> 6171155

Go look at the time stamps. We posted within a half of of each other, genuis. I specifically looked before posting, but guess it just took me a little longer post an get the link in, plus comment. 

In the designs, there is still an "Accessible Core." It starts (full car) at the premium coach (in a 2+1 seating pattern, good to provide wide aisle!), then into the cafe (yikes with the cafe table sizes trying to fit four people), through the diner/kitchen, into the diner/lounge (again, yikes with the tables sizes trying to fit four people), and ending with the adjacent ADA sleeper that has two ADA bedrooms. and 4 regular bedrooms. The problem is not having an all-bedroom sleeper (Club Sleeper) without ADA bedrooms. Again, the traditional bedroom count per train car has been decreasing over time, when demand for them has been going UP!

In regards to the cafe and diner table seating - perhaps Amtrak is better off designing the cafe and diner tables as they are, and if a few happen to turn into 1-1 seating, so be it. However the more optimal approach would be a 2-2 for one side of the diner and 1-1 on the other side - at least in the diner, so you can get comfortable space and adequate space for a group of four. 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/07/26 04:47 by jp1822.