International Railroad Discussion > Railfaning at Rocha Dias loop Brazil)

One of my favourite spots for railfaning MRS railroad is the famous Rocha Dias loop, at Mantiqueira hill. From the hill on the top of tunnel 26 we can see the train coming from a long distance, then entering tunnels 24 and 25 while doing the big horse shoe curve at Rocha Dias siding, and finally coming to pass under us through tunnel 26 on its way up to the summit at Joao Aires siding.

3) Photographing a balast train coming to a stop at the siding;

1) Me and friend Walter with the loop in the background. At left you can see the bore of tunnel 24, and at right the tracks at the siding. The diference of level from each locations is about 45 meters;

2) The balast train exiting tunnel 26 after pass by the loop.

Pedro Rezende
Vespasiano MG,




Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/10/17 15:04 by pedrop.

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OK I'll bite.
What is that you are standing on?

Hi, that is a bridge used for hang gliding.

BobP Wrote:
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> OK I'll bite.
> What is that you are standing on?

Posted from Android

Pedro Rezende
Vespasiano MG,
https://youtube.com/c/minasgeraisrailways1

Hola Rezende!

1) An empty ore passing by the loop while Walter was recording a movie with my cell phone;

2) GE U23C 3292 and C30-7 3767 acelerating to leave the yard with a ballast train;

3) The same train exiting tunnel 26.

Pedro Rezende
Vespasiano MG,
https://youtube.com/c/minasgeraisrailways1

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The location seen from Google

Pedro Rezende
Vespasiano MG,
https://youtube.com/c/minasgeraisrailways1

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Stunning shots! Thanks for sharing!

Locomotives AC44i 3446 and 3488 leading an empty ore at Rocha Dias siding (FRD code on MRS system)

Pedro Rezende
Vespasiano MG,
https://youtube.com/c/minasgeraisrailways1

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pedrop Wrote:
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> Hi, that is a bridge used for hang gliding.
>
> BobP Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > OK I'll bite.
> > What is that you are standing on?
>
> Posted from Android

SAFETY ALERT! Pedrop, you forgot to wear your hang-glider!

Looks like the perfect  place to pace the train on video, using a drone.  Just slowly pan, move a litttle, pan some more....

The sounds of an uphill train there must be tremendous.  Does anybody have a drone that records sound?  Can you filter out that annoying buzz from the quadrocopter blades?

Oh yes, I imagine that it can be wonderfull to follow a train using a drone there. For while it is too expensive here to buy one. Next month I and friends will do a meeting in that spot with an overnight stay to watch the trains running there at night. The sound of the loaded trains up hill is fantastic.



march_hare Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Looks like the perfect  place to pace the train
> on video, using a drone.  Just slowly pan, move a
> litttle, pan some more....
>
> The sounds of an uphill train there must be
> tremendous.  Does anybody have a drone that
> records sound?  Can you filter out that annoying
> buzz from the quadrocopter blades?

Posted from Android

Pedro Rezende
Vespasiano MG,
https://youtube.com/c/minasgeraisrailways1

Good evening Pedro,


Can you expand further why the route went the way if possible
with the 45 meter elevation taken into account?
Was this an old steam route at one time and could you describe the history of it?

Are the cleared hillsides grazing land?

Leonz, that is the aligment of the third railroad to be built in Brazil, the old Dom Pedro II (EFDPII), later the Estrada de Ferro Central do Brasil (EFCB). The tracks arrived in the area of Mantiqueira hill by 1870´s. Like Tehachapi and other passes in US, the constructors needed to do many curves to gain the necessary hight to reach the pass at João Aires. A big curve at Rocha dias, alloewd them to reach a good level and crossing some tunnels, they found the aligment to the pass. I think the grade there is not higher than 2% thanks to the curves in Rocha Dias siding.
In the diesel era, when the government operation with former RFFSA controled that tracks, some minors aligment were done, with one or two new bores to receive bigger locomotives and trains, but most of the tunnels and curves are the same from the 1870. Since MRS has another tracks to loaded trains, that tracks are used by empty ores and some freight, but always in the up hill direction. They only uses to run train down hill when the other tracks in Ferrovia do Aco (Steel Railroad) is closed by an accident. This year (2017) it happened two times.

leonz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Good evening Pedro,
>
>
> Can you expand further why the route went the way
> if possible
> with the 45 meter elevation taken into account?
> Was this an old steam route at one time and could
> you describe the history of it?
>
> Are the cleared hillsides grazing land?

Pedro Rezende
Vespasiano MG,
https://youtube.com/c/minasgeraisrailways1

In this map I marked the Steel Railroad in red and the Centro line in yellow. Mantiqueira hill is in the blue piece at Centro line

Pedro Rezende
Vespasiano MG,
https://youtube.com/c/minasgeraisrailways1

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Good morning Pedro,


Do you know if Arthur Mellon Wellington designed these 2 railroad lines?

I guess I have to ask and perhaps you may know; why they did not use switchbacks
as they are the most efficient and cost effective way to climb grades?

I have seen this section of the MRS in the simulator of a friend of mine. I will ask him who made it.
Well, the constructors of old EFDPII planned a railroad where the same trains could run from the sea coast to the interland. The british engineers planned a cog railroad in the first big hill in Rio de Janeiro, but the constructor called a Colonel in US that was building a route in the Rocky mountains in simple adherence and that guy gave him the hints to built all the tracks to simple adherence from Rio to Minas Gerais. It proved to be a smart decision. Nowadays, the same route are actived to modern ore trains.

Posted from Android

Pedro Rezende
Vespasiano MG,
https://youtube.com/c/minasgeraisrailways1



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/16/17 14:15 by pedrop.

Hola Pedro,

It was probably Colonel Rogers that told them to not use a cog railway.
He was part of the engineering party that designed and built the Canadian Pacific Railway.

Transit tunnels are problematic from a mining standpoint (I spent 20 years of my life in room and pillar mining)
as they are always always subject to ground movements and earthquakes even in basalt and granite.
The other thing is that railroads become too dependent on them.


Leon

I cannot believe that switchbacks are the most efficient way to gain elevation, unless it is a terribly steep grade (like 4%) or more, the trains will be short, and the railroad not long lived. Making horseshoe curves, even many ones, and even a complete loops is much better to keep trains moving in the same direction. Even spiral loops where trains cross over themselves is preferable. No getting on and off trains to throw switches. Less derailment prone. Check the rail lines (standard guage built since 1960 and not high speed rail) the Chinese have built thru mountains that certainly equal, or excel the Rockies and see how many loops they use for elevation changes. Many are not even tight, but it is hard to follow them on Google Earth. The only critical railroad I know of that has to regularly use switchbacks for elevation changes is the Central of Peru, and their trains are maximum 18 cars.

Arthur Mellon Wellington who was a well known and accepted civil engineer that built many railroads in Mexico and other locales wrote the well accepted railroad building bible "On The Placement Of Railroads" and in it he states and proves in basic formula and mathematics that switch backs are the most efficient way to climb mountains. I have been blessed with an original second edition copy of his wonderful book.

Switchbacks have been the victim of poorly built construction and cost cutting methods and the "lack of maintenance and upgrading the topography they were placed on" which caused many problems that did not have to occur as the railroad owners did not want to improve these lines hoping to find a better solution.

If as in GN's case they had simply moved the track to the opposite side of the valley across Martin Creek after the line was established and the existing infrastructure was in place and added backfill and driven pilings to to support the backfill and in the process reduced the grade to a lower percentage the lines would be in perfect order as the grades would have been reduced to 1 percent or less and there would be near level tangent track from one elevation to the next and heavier track would be utilized to support the trains as more trains could be switched per day as they were already transiting 300 trains per month and could have moved even more traffic if they had mined the floor out of the old cascade tunnel to allow for double stack trains.

Switchbacks have been the victim of poorly built construction and old methods of excavation and grading and the lack of maintenance
and improving the topography the lines were placed on as the railroad owners were not corrected after they were established and
these switchbacks or snow shed galleries and insisted that up to date construction methods be used to improve an old line they would have been better able to support the traffic they were tasked with handling in any case.

Tunneling for a railroad is a huge undertaking and don't let anyone tell you it is not as they have never done it.

Why do you think that BNSF and its managers became so defensive about the discussion of the new Cascade Tunnel when it was discussed in detail in trains magazine and how little it would have cost to upgrade the old line added to the fact the old line was being upgraded after the Wellington avalanche?

Ralph Budd almost bankrupted the Great Northern Railway when the New Cascade Tunnel was built and if it had not been for the revenue stream coming from the CB&Q from hauling iron ore it would have gone under. The accounting method he used was in examining the issue.
The members of the Board of directors of the GN at that time is also and issue as today's corporate governance laws would not have allowed those members to control the board of directors which created the New Cascade Tunnel which was a huge overbudget project that would have bankrupted the GN if the CB&Q was not hauling iron ore from the Mesabi Range to the iron ore docks at Allouez.

The same could be said for removing the electrification of the new Cascade Tunnel they did not examine it extensively enough before they ripped out the electric power as they obviously did not spend the time needed to improve it by upgrading the 47 year old electric system with new electric locomotives new high voltage wire for 230,000 KVA power and and controls.

It is no different than not repairing track beds that dip and creating more linear rights of way in the routes that railroads travel across and thereby eliminating the cause and effect with issues with broken couplers as trains are expanding in length and contracting as they cross the terrain.

The fewer curves you have the less radial stresses you have on track and the less fuel you consume as the locomotive requires less energy to pull tonnage. this is why a switch back is very effective when it is built properly as the tail track is at or near the elevation of the next leg of the climb as long as it is built correctly and there are no shortcuts made in its construction.

The building of the Flat Head Tunnel in "MY" opinion would have been a non issue as drill and blast excavation of the mountain route and road miners would have been used to create the finished route at a very very very low low grade percentage and using heavier 165 pound track, concrete ties and IORE electric locomotives would have been more than adequate to move the trains as they had already planned on installing high voltage power for tunnel ventilation that could have been better used for powering the IORE locomotives for climbing the route and dynamic braking would have fed power back into the caternary line reducing the amount of power consumed.


My opinion anyway.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/26/17 08:16 by leonz.