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International Railroad Discussion > EU says Alstom and Siemens may NOT merge


Date: 02/06/19 07:27
EU says Alstom and Siemens may NOT merge
Author: Highspeed

The European Union Antitrust Commission has blocked the merger of Alstom and Siemens. The merger had been proposed as a way to compete with the rail companies of the Chinese Government.

Needless to say, the governments of Germany and France are not happy with the EU's ruling.

https://apnews.com/ebbcccb2b0334d2bbdc7bca99cd7f4b6



Date: 02/06/19 12:05
Re: EU says Alstom and Siemens may NOT merge
Author: usmc1401

Can you say Germext or Francext



Date: 02/06/19 20:47
Re: EU says Alstom and Siemens may NOT merge
Author: cchan006

usmc1401 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can you say Germext or Francext

Hehe. Seeing how the events are unfolding in Europe, France might do it before Germany, but politics aside...

(EU Antitrust Commissioner) Margrethe Vestager argued CRRC (China) was not an imminent threat, since more than 90 percent of its activities were in China. “It has had less success outside its home market.”

Those promoting the Alstom/Siemens merger are dangling the China "threat" as the reason why this must happen. I agree with Vestager that the China reason is B.S.

Anyway, if Siemens had not allowed China to steal their technology, maybe this would not have been an issue. CRRC will find other suckers to sell stolen technologies as their own outside of Europe. Isn't globalization great?



Date: 02/07/19 03:32
Re: EU says Alstom and Siemens may NOT merge
Author: andersonb109

Can you only imagine another country telling one of our company's what they can and can't do. No wonder the majority of Britt's wanted out. 



Date: 02/07/19 06:48
Re: EU says Alstom and Siemens may NOT merge
Author: utwazoo

andersonb109 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can you only imagine another country telling one
> of our company's what they can and can't do. No
> wonder the majority of Britt's wanted out. 

No different than we telling Chinese and other companies what they can and cannot do.  The UK is in for some tough sledding in coming years.



Date: 02/07/19 07:51
Re: EU says Alstom and Siemens may NOT merge
Author: pennengineer

andersonb109 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Can you only imagine another country telling one
> of our company's what they can and can't do. No
> wonder the majority of Britt's wanted out. 

Except that's not what happened, and you know it. Stop misconstruing facts in order to prop up your ideology. The EU has regulatory oversight over its member countries, which includes both France and Germany, both of which entered into it voluntarily and have benefited from it immensely. It's more akin to the U.S. federal government preventing a company from Texas and another from Maine from merging. 

Regardless, in this case it was the right call. The last thing Europe needs is less competition within its own market. Size does not equal success -- just look at how successful Stadler has been despite the competition from Siemens and Alstom (among others). Furthermore, CRRC has yet to prove itself a worthy competitor on a large scale outside of the Chinese market. And a merger of Siemens and Alstom would have had one major effect -- a net loss of jobs for French and German employees. The leadership of both companies were merely using the Chinese threat to push through something that would otherwise have been unpalatable. And the result would have been a giant near-monopoly, which is not necessarily something to strive for.

And as far as the UK "wanting out": this would be the same UK that thanks to its glorious libertarian policies lacks a domestic train builder and has one of the most expensive railway systems in the world? If there's one benefit of the mess that is Brexit -- a huge self-inflicted wound of a scale rarely seen in modern history -- it is that the remaining EU countries will be rid of the neoliberal influence that the UK has had in EU politics, which has only served to weaken national railway systems and reduce international train connections.

And by the way, it's "companies", "it" rather than "they", and "Brits" (one "t" and no apostrophe).



Date: 02/07/19 08:30
Re: EU says Alstom and Siemens may NOT merge
Author: utwazoo

pennengineer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> andersonb109 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Can you only imagine another country telling
> one
> > of our company's what they can and can't do. No
> > wonder the majority of Britt's wanted out. 
>
> Except that's not what happened, and you know it.
> Stop misconstruing facts in order to prop up your
> ideology. The EU has regulatory oversight over its
> member countries, which includes both France and
> Germany, both of which entered into it voluntarily
> and have benefited from it immensely. It's more
> akin to the U.S. federal government preventing a
> company from Texas and another from Maine from
> merging. 
>
> Regardless, in this case it was the right call.
> The last thing Europe needs is less competition
> within its own market. Size does not equal success
> -- just look at how successful Stadler has been
> despite the competition from Siemens and Alstom
> (among others). Furthermore, CRRC has yet to prove
> itself a worthy competitor on a large scale
> outside of the Chinese market. And a merger of
> Siemens and Alstom would have had one major effect
> -- a net loss of jobs for French and German
> employees. The leadership of both companies were
> merely using the Chinese threat to push through
> something that would otherwise have been
> unpalatable. And the result would have been a
> giant near-monopoly, which is not necessarily
> something to strive for.
>
> And as far as the UK "wanting out": this would be
> the same UK that thanks to its glorious
> libertarian policies lacks a domestic train
> builder and has one of the most expensive railway
> systems in the world? If there's one benefit of
> the mess that is Brexit -- a huge self-inflicted
> wound of a scale rarely seen in modern history --
> it is that the remaining EU countries will be rid
> of the neoliberal influence that the UK has had in
> EU politics, which has only served to weaken
> national railway systems and reduce international
> train connections.
>
> And by the way, it's "companies", "it" rather than
> "they", and "Brits" (one "t" and no apostrophe).

Well stated.  The  British are going to soon find out the cost of their xenophobia.  As far as mergers in general,  they seldom do anything except kill jobs and lessen competition.  Look at our result, with a few huge railroads and airlines that could give a flip about their customers, decent service and the like. 



Date: 02/07/19 13:56
Re: EU says Alstom and Siemens may NOT merge
Author: jmt

> Well stated.  The  British are going to soon
> find out the cost of their xenophobia. 

What a load of codswallop. With Brexit the British people will again be under the control of their own parliament making their own laws, and be rid of faceless foreign bureaucrats imposing one size fits all regulation, and having court verdicts passed on to a European court for appeal. Europe is great if you want to live in a Socialist politically correct nanny state, with know-all politicians and bureaucrats governing your every movement. Plus border control, who wants to live in a state with open borders, and no control over who can enter, and allowing in refugees? Brexit is about the grassroots British voter taking back control of their country, and telling the self righteous European political class to bugger off. Those who voted to leave, are from mainly outside of the London area and university towns, they dont give a toss about European unity. They are totally frustrated with the one size fits all European mentality, and autocratic whackers like Jean-Claude Juncker. After all we have a 2 mellenium history of being invaded by, and fighting the bastards, bloody Italians pre BC, to say nothing of the Norsemam plundering the north for 300 years prior to the Frog invasion of 1066.



Date: 02/07/19 14:30
Re: EU says Alstom and Siemens may NOT merge
Author: thehighwayman

jmt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Well stated.  The  British are going to soon
> > find out the cost of their xenophobia. 
>
> What a load of codswallop. With Brexit the British
> people will again be under the control of their
> own parliament making their own laws, and be rid
> of faceless foreign bureaucrats imposing one size
> fits all regulation, and having court verdicts
> passed on to a European court for appeal. Europe
> is great if you want to live in a Socialist
> politically correct nanny state, with know-all
> politicians and bureaucrats governing your every
> movement. Plus border control, who wants to live
> in a state with open borders, and no control over
> who can enter, and allowing in refugees? Brexit is
> about the grassroots British voter taking back
> control of their country, and telling the self
> righteous European political class to bugger off.
> Those who voted to leave, are from mainly outside
> of the London area and university towns, they dont
> give a toss about European unity. They are totally
> frustrated with the one size fits all European
> mentality, and autocratic whackers like
> Jean-Claude Juncker. After all we have a 2
> mellenium history of being invaded by, and
> fighting the bastards, bloody Italians pre BC, to
> say nothing of the Norsemam plundering the north
> for 300 years prior to the Frog invasion of 1066.

I have been waiting for someone to chime in and explain what it is all about!
Thank you!

 

Will MacKenzie
Dundas, ON



Date: 02/07/19 17:46
Re: EU says Alstom and Siemens may NOT merge
Author: tomstp

I think that border thing was the main object of leaving the EU.  And, I don't blame them.



Date: 02/08/19 00:14
Re: EU says Alstom and Siemens may NOT merge
Author: pennengineer

jmt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Well stated.  The  British are going to soon
> > find out the cost of their xenophobia. 
>
> What a load of codswallop. With Brexit the British
> people will again be under the control of their
> own parliament making their own laws, and be rid
> of faceless foreign bureaucrats imposing one size
> fits all regulation, and having court verdicts
> passed on to a European court for appeal. Europe
> is great if you want to live in a Socialist
> politically correct nanny state, with know-all
> politicians and bureaucrats governing your every
> movement. Plus border control, who wants to live
> in a state with open borders, and no control over
> who can enter, and allowing in refugees? Brexit is
> about the grassroots British voter taking back
> control of their country, and telling the self
> righteous European political class to bugger off.
> Those who voted to leave, are from mainly outside
> of the London area and university towns, they dont
> give a toss about European unity. They are totally
> frustrated with the one size fits all European
> mentality, and autocratic whackers like
> Jean-Claude Juncker. After all we have a 2
> mellenium history of being invaded by, and
> fighting the bastards, bloody Italians pre BC, to
> say nothing of the Norsemam plundering the north
> for 300 years prior to the Frog invasion of 1066.

You should have used a colon rather than a full stop after the word “codswallop”. Allow me to summarize your post: a bunch of vague, meaningless, emotional outbursts about “taking back control”. (You actually think the British voter will have a say in the minutiae of, say, food safety regulation post-Brexit? This has been something that has been a daily burden for you? Hogwash.) You will, however, face higher costs for consumer goods and for services, face staffing shortages, and will spend a small fortune rewriting laws that needed no rewriting. All whilst likely having to follow many of the rules of the single market in order to maintain Irish peace but without a say in said rules. And while risking another Scottish referendum and the breakup of the UK.

The referendum was an irresponsible,m and cowardly but of opportunism on Cameron’s part, which blowhards like Farage and Johnson (really? These are the lot you’re throwing your support behind?) selfishly exploited by peddling nonsense about control and hundreds of millions for the NHS, even though tgough they knew that those arguments were hollow. And they themselves had no idea how to implement what they were promoting and no intention of sticking around to see it through. I love the UK and am hoping for the best, but this whole episode—particularly the last three months—has simply been a disgrace.

But, hey, you’ll get “control”. I hope it will be worth it.

Posted from iPhone



Date: 02/08/19 00:55
Re: EU says Alstom and Siemens may NOT merge
Author: jmt

Back to the merger rejection. I don't know what weed the European Union Antitrust Commissioners were smoking, but it obviously impared their judgement

China's 2 locomotive building groups China Northern, and China Southern were owned both owned by the State-owned Assets Supervision and Administration Commission of the State Council [SASAC], so under direct Party control. These entities were merged on 1 June 2015, in a deliberate attempt to reduce competition. In places like Argentina the 2 corporations had been bidding against each other, so Argentina received relatively cheap locos (if you deduct the $US500k per loco added into the price then kicked back to Peronist politicians). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CRRC

In todays Wall Street Journal is news that Korea is bulking up its shipbuilding industry by merger, to take on the Chinese
https://www.wsj.com/articles/koreas-mega-merger-of-shipyards-set-to-dominate-global-shipbuilding-11549475888
The merged entity will hold 52% of existing orders for LNG carriers, and will control a fifth of the broader ship building market, according to marine data provider VesselsValue.

By merging the 2 European loco builders (assumes the Commissioners view Bombardier as Canadian), would have give the resulting entity sufficient traction to take on the Chinese, but apparently European buerocrats know best,and don't want their locomotive building industry to be internationally competative. So the European nanny state, and political correctness win again.



Date: 02/09/19 08:55
Re: EU says Alstom and Siemens may NOT merge
Author: Lackawanna484

The idea of a national champion in an industry isn't just a Chinese concept. Europe conceived the Airbus company as a direct response to Boeing.

CRRC is building rail cars in western MA. How are they doing?

Posted from Android



Date: 02/09/19 09:22
Re: EU says Alstom and Siemens may NOT merge
Author: newtonville150

thehighwayman Wrote:
>
> I have been waiting for someone to chime in and
> explain what it is all about!
> Thank you!
>
>  

Yeah, a perfect example of Brexiteer xenophobia right there.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/09/19 12:28 by newtonville150.



Date: 02/10/19 23:04
Re: EU says Alstom and Siemens may NOT merge
Author: cchan006

jmt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> By merging the 2 European loco builders (assumes
> the Commissioners view Bombardier as Canadian),
> would have give the resulting entity sufficient
> traction to take on the Chinese, but apparently
> European buerocrats know best,and don't want their
> locomotive building industry to be internationally
> competative. So the European nanny state, and
> political correctness win again.

I think Vestager (The EU Anti-trust Commissioner) acted independently. She went AGAINST the wishes of Angela Merkel and French Prime Minister Edouard Philippe. That doesn't fit your nanny state and political correctness narratives. To make it easier for you to undestand, Vestager went against the globalist agenda of merging Siemens and Alstom.

The leaders of the strongest EU member countries (Germany and France) used China xenophobia to push their own agendas! That blows up the petty political discussions we've had in this thead. :-)



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