Railfan Technology > Maximum ISO

What is the highest ISO that would result in a decent picture of moving trains?  For the sake of argument, assume a 11" X 17" is the largest print that would be made.

Thanks,

Neil

Here’s one I posted a few months back. ISO 320,000. Train speed about 20mph. 

---

Astounding! In the 1970's I was happy to have High Speed Ektachrome push processed to ASA 400 for slides and Tri-X at ASA 1100 developed in Accufine for black and white.
Bob

march_hare Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here’s one I posted a few months back. ISO
> 320,000. Train speed about 20mph. 

That is amazing!!! What camera and photo editing software did you use to finish that pic?

Very nice!  If you don't mind sharing, what were the f- stop and shutter speed?

Here's something to think about.  When you make an 11X17" print, you are not going to look at it like you would a 4X6" print.  You look at the 4X6 at a bent arms length, maybe 12 to 14" from your face..  You look at the 11X17" from at least an arms-length if you want to see the entire picture.  Here's a good example, and you won't mind doing it.  Go to your nearest mall and find the Victoria's Secret store.  Stand in the middle of the mall or the far side and look at the pictures they have in the windows. Nice, aren't they?  Now walk up to those windows and take a closer look and you'll see just how pixelated they really are.  

I took a picture at a high school football game several years ago.  I forgot what the settings were but the lighting was limited and I had the ISO cranked up rather high so that I could stop most of the action.  The picture came out quite good so I had it printed at 24X36" just to see what the thing would look like.  I presented the print to the school and they have it posted in the hall.  No one will be closer than 4 feet from it when they view it and at that distance, no one is going to notice that it is a bit grainy.  BTW, I was using an older camera with 5-megapixel resolution.  

My best advice would be to go out and try a dozen or more settings.  Start with maybe ISO 1600, then 3200, then 6400, etc...  You can also try various shutter speeds and apertures.  See what YOU like and YOU think is acceptable.  Pick out one or two that you think are the acceptable ones and go have the 11X17 print made.  It will only cost a few bucks.  It's cheaper than when we used to be limited to film.

The worst case of me was about 50 years ago.  I for a roll of 35mm Royal Pan, ASA 1600.   (ASA is what they used to call OSI.) I exposed it at ASA 4000 and push processed it.  I could make a 5X7" print that looked OK but anything larger than that looked like it was a sand painting.  Film is a lot better today and digital cameras are=15.6px even better.  

John

High ISO limits are dependent primarily on how new the design of the sensor is.  The newest high end cameras from Canon and Nikon with high end glass, for example, can reliably go beyond the 25,600 my measly 8 year old Canon 5Diii has done with good results.  Having good post processing software and knowledge of how to clean up noise is equally important as the gear.  It all comes down to how much money, software, and experience one has to get good high ISO results.

wa4umr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You look at the 11X17" from at least an
> arms-length if you want to see the entire
> picture.

As my college photo professor put it "You are supposed to view the picture, not smell it."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/11/21 22:37 by clem.

SOUCF25 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What is the highest ISO that would result in a
> decent picture of moving trains?  For the sake of
> argument, assume a 11" X 17" is the largest print
> that would be made.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Neil

That's like asking how spicey can my food be before I need to take a snow cone with me into the bathroom.

It depends. Especially when you don't give us any information about what camera you have. My 20 yearold Olympus C2100UZ? It maxes out at ISO 400, and is pretty nasty even at that. One of the cameras in this article, well, best to read the article:

https://www.thephoblographer.com/2020/06/07/see-in-the-dark-8-affordable-cameras-with-great-high-iso-performance/

 

Arved Grass
Fleming Island, FL

refarkas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Astounding! In the 1970's I was happy to have High
> Speed Ektachrome push processed to ASA 400 for
> slides and Tri-X at ASA 1100 developed in Accufine
> for black and white.

I often think the same thing when I'm using high ISO or when I shoot in the dark then the next morning shoot in sunlight without changing film. I often wish that a digital 4x5 back was not so pricey.

TAW

Arved Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SOUCF25 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > What is the highest ISO that would result in a
> > decent picture of moving trains?  For the sake
> of
> > argument, assume a 11" X 17" is the largest
> print
> > that would be made.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Neil
>
> That's like asking how spicey can my food be
> before I need to take a snow cone with me into the
> bathroom.
>
> It depends. Especially when you don't give us any
> information about what camera you have. My 20
> yearold Olympus C2100UZ? It maxes out at ISO 400,
> and is pretty nasty even at that. One of the
> cameras in this article, well, best to read the
> article:
>
> https://www.thephoblographer.com/2020/06/07/see-in
> -the-dark-8-affordable-cameras-with-great-high-iso
> -performance/

================

I have two Nikon D7100's and one D5100.  All of the glass is Nikon.  Both max out at ISO 6400 with boost to 25600.

Neil

SOUCF25 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Arved Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > SOUCF25 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > What is the highest ISO that would result in
> a
> > > decent picture of moving trains?  For the
> sake
> > of
> > > argument, assume a 11" X 17" is the largest
> > print
> > > that would be made.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Neil
> >
> > That's like asking how spicey can my food be
> > before I need to take a snow cone with me into
> the
> > bathroom.
> >
> > It depends. Especially when you don't give us
> any
> > information about what camera you have. My 20
> > yearold Olympus C2100UZ? It maxes out at ISO
> 400,
> > and is pretty nasty even at that. One of the
> > cameras in this article, well, best to read the
> > article:
> >
> >
> https://www.thephoblographer.com/2020/06/07/see-in
>
> >
> -the-dark-8-affordable-cameras-with-great-high-iso
>
> > -performance/
>
> ================
>
> I have two Nikon D7100's and one D5100.  All of
> the glass is Nikon.  Both max out at ISO 6400
> with boost to 25600.
>
> Neil

I don't have any experience with either camera, but reviews of the D7100 seem to show good high-ISO performance even at ISO 6400.
"... the D7100 is not bad. Far from it. You get an eminently usable file that maintains good color accuracy. Yet it's important to know that if you're after the greatest degree of detail in high ISO images, there is a price to be paid with the smaller APS-C sensor." - https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d7100/19

If you're finding the high-ISO perfomance lacking, I'd suggest trying software that targets noise reduction. Personally, I use Topaz Labs DeNoise AI. There's an overview of Noise Reduction software here:

https://capturetheatlas.com/noise-reduction-software/

where, coincidently, "Topaz Denoise AI has proven to be the best photo noise reduction software in 2021 compared to other denoise software."

Frankly, if Topaz DeNoise can't give you the high-ISO performance you need, it's probably time to upgrade your camera. But therein lies a significant issue - how much noise is acceptable to you? Some have a higher tolerance of it in our images than others.

FWIW I've been a Nikon loyalist for nearly 40 years. I've also got a pair of Fujifilm APS-C cameras (X-E2S and X-H1), but since then, have acquired a D810 and am loving it. The Rangefinder format of the X-E2S and the IBIS of the X-H1 have their place in my shooting style, but for super serious work, it's hard to resist 36MP of full frame bliss. My Nikon film days were dominated by the use of Kodachrome 25, even for night photography, so it's rare for me to use any of my digital cameras at more than the native ISO. But when I do have to crank up the ISO, as I said, Topaz DeNoise AI is part of the workflow.

I hope this helps, and good luck!



 

Arved Grass
Fleming Island, FL

Arved Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SOUCF25 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Arved Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > SOUCF25 Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > What is the highest ISO that would result
> in
> > a
> > > > decent picture of moving trains?  For the
> > sake
> > > of
> > > > argument, assume a 11" X 17" is the largest
> > > print
> > > > that would be made.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Neil
> > >
> > > That's like asking how spicey can my food be
> > > before I need to take a snow cone with me
> into
> > the
> > > bathroom.
> > >
> > > It depends. Especially when you don't give us
> > any
> > > information about what camera you have. My 20
> > > yearold Olympus C2100UZ? It maxes out at ISO
> > 400,
> > > and is pretty nasty even at that. One of the
> > > cameras in this article, well, best to read
> the
> > > article:
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://www.thephoblographer.com/2020/06/07/see-in
>
> >
> > >
> >
> -the-dark-8-affordable-cameras-with-great-high-iso
>
> >
> > > -performance/
> >
> > ================
> >
> > I have two Nikon D7100's and one D5100.  All
> of
> > the glass is Nikon.  Both max out at ISO 6400
> > with boost to 25600.
> >
> > Neil
>
> I don't have any experience with either camera,
> but reviews of the D7100 seem to show good
> high-ISO performance even at ISO 6400.
> "... the D7100 is not bad. Far from it. You get an
> eminently usable file that maintains good color
> accuracy. Yet it's important to know that if
> you're after the greatest degree of detail in high
> ISO images, there is a price to be paid with the
> smaller APS-C sensor." -
> https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d7100/19
>
> If you're finding the high-ISO perfomance lacking,
> I'd suggest trying software that targets noise
> reduction. Personally, I use Topaz Labs DeNoise
> AI. There's an overview of Noise Reduction
> software here:
>
> https://capturetheatlas.com/noise-reduction-softwa
> re/
>
> where, coincidently, "Topaz Denoise AI has proven
> to be the best photo noise reduction software in
> 2021 compared to other denoise software."
>
> Frankly, if Topaz DeNoise can't give you the
> high-ISO performance you need, it's probably time
> to upgrade your camera. But therein lies a
> significant issue - how much noise is acceptable
> to you? Some have a higher tolerance of it in our
> images than others.
>
> FWIW I've been a Nikon loyalist for nearly 40
> years. I've also got a pair of Fujifilm APS-C
> cameras (X-E2S and X-H1), but since then, have
> acquired a D810 and am loving it. The Rangefinder
> format of the X-E2S and the IBIS of the X-H1 have
> their place in my shooting style, but for super
> serious work, it's hard to resist 36MP of full
> frame bliss. My Nikon film days were dominated by
> the use of Kodachrome 25, even for night
> photography, so it's rare for me to use any of my
> digital cameras at more than the native ISO. But
> when I do have to crank up the ISO, as I said,
> Topaz DeNoise AI is part of the workflow.
>
> I hope this helps, and good luck!


Thanks!

Here is a link https://sites.google.com/site/marclevoylectures/home​  to a twenty part lecture on Digital Photography by Marc Levoy at Google, and Stanford.

It also contains a lot of information about high ISO limitations, and very low light photography, and ways to take test shots for long exposure images.

Bill



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/13/21 07:26 by Buhl56.

Remember, too, that low light shots frequently require manual focus mode as the auto-focus system(s) don't get enough light to function. 

6-7 years ago, to take a hand held camera shot in a one-hand-held-candle-was-the-only-light-in-the-100%-dark-room I cranked my 5Diii to ISO 25,600, had my 24-105 F4 L on (no light to find my bag to switch lenses) and resorted to 'bracket focusing' - manually changing focus max left, middle left, center, middle right, max right multiple cycles, all by feel only.  Out of maybe 20 shots, there was one real keeper with sharp focus and proper exposure.  It took a while, though, to remove the noise to get a great end result.

twjurgens Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Very nice!  If you don't mind sharing, what were
> the f- stop and shutter speed?

1/200 sec, f4.5.   Canon 5D, Mark IV. 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/21 18:34 by march_hare.

Thanks!

march_hare Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> twjurgens Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Very nice!  If you don't mind sharing, what
> were
> > the f- stop and shutter speed?
>
> 1/200 sec, f4.5.   Canon 5D, Mark IV. 

My Iphone will go to sime ridiculous ISO and render a near daylight scene from pitch darkness......The problem for me is that I want night scenes rendered as my eye sees them and that means playing around with the device to see what it takes to get that. Publised specs are only a guide....you got to shoot some pix at different iso's, shutter speeds and apertures to see what any one kind of scene will give you. Remember that flash is meant for nearby subjects....use it at a distance and it will spoil your shot. 

march_hare Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Here’s one I posted a few months back. ISO
> 320,000. Train speed about 20mph. 

Nice image, Not to be pain in the ass but Canon 5d Mark ?? has a max of 32,000 expandable to 102,000 similar to my Nikon D-780.

So 320,000 is an extra zero and would be 5?? extra stops.  As far as max ISO, this depends on lighting, seems to be well placed auto providing some supplement????  Really dark areas at high ISO will get very noisy, no miarcles yet. 

Bob

Lighting in that pic is ambient (from the store sign and a streetlight) and the high beams of a Ford F-250 pickup truck, behind the photographer. No post processing, and I didn't have noise reduction turned on. One of these days I have to sit down and play with the .RAW version.