Western Railroad Discussion > Hours Of Service Undistrubed Rest

Does anyone know if there is a "penalty" if the crew callers disturb FRA mandated undisturbed rest? Can a employee tell said crew caller their not rested, their rest is distrubed and that the rest starts over again from the time of the call/violation? I've heard guys talk about it but cannot find it in writing. Also, how can a TY&E be required to work only once in a 24 hour period when say you work 12 hours and a manager or crew calling tells you to show back on your rest? (10 hours not 12). Is this loophole only for regular assignments and not extra board employees? Clear as mud as usual.

CNsucks Wrote:
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> Does anyone know if there is a "penalty" if the
> crew callers disturb FRA mandated undisturbed
> rest? Can a employee tell said crew caller their
> not rested, their rest is distrubed and that the
> rest starts over again from the time of the
> call/violation? I've heard guys talk about it but
> cannot find it in writing. Also, how can a TY&E
> be required to work only once in a 24 hour period
> when say you work 12 hours and a manager or crew
> calling tells you to show back on your rest? (10
> hours not 12). Is this loophole only for regular
> assignments and not extra board employees? Clear
> as mud as usual.

If anyone from the carrier -- crew caller, signal trouble desk, fellow employee re: work, company officer, your supervisor, Matt Rose dialing the wrong number -- calls you on your rest, the 10-hour rest period begins again from that moment.

I don't understand the context of the last three sentences. Sorry.

On regular jobs that have a set duty time, such as locals crews who tie up and won't be rested for the normal start time are instructed to come to work on their rest. The company can push the start time back, but they must notify the crew before they tie up. When I 1st hired out if you where not rested for the start of a job it just went xtra board and you got the earning. The company does not like paying double for the work, and they started pushing the start times back. As for rest any one from the company interrupts your undisturbed rest and the 10 hours starts over.

We need this interpretation in aviation.

Rob
Kenner, LA
Operation Deepwater Horizon Response

CNsucks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does anyone know if there is a "penalty" if the
> crew callers disturb FRA mandated undisturbed
> rest? Can a employee tell said crew caller their
> not rested, their rest is distrubed and that the
> rest starts over again from the time of the
> call/violation? I've heard guys talk about it but
> cannot find it in writing. Also, how can a TY&E
> be required to work only once in a 24 hour period
> when say you work 12 hours and a manager or crew
> calling tells you to show back on your rest? (10
> hours not 12). Is this loophole only for regular
> assignments and not extra board employees? Clear
> as mud as usual.

Signalmaintainer is correct about the first part as for the second part, a manager or crew caller cannot order you to come back to work if you are not federally rested. This pertains to all hours of service employees whether regularly assigned or extra. Another thing that you didn't touch on was being on duty over 12 hours (limbo time as the Feds call it). Any amount of time that you are on duty over 12 hours (as in deadheading back to your terminal) is added to your rest time, For instance, if you work 12 and it takes 2 hours to get to your tie-up terminal, that 2 hours is added to your 10 hours of normal rest for a total of 12 hours undisturbed.-BMT

Got_Steam Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We need this interpretation in aviation.
>
> Rob
> Kenner, LA
> Operation Deepwater Horizon Response

Already do in the Air Force. If they disturb your crew rest for anything at all, the 8 hour clock is reset.

10 hours "undisturbed" rest. I have been told at the away from home terminal that my train was tied down in the yard and to show up in 10 hours on my rest. So technically I had 10 hours undisturbed rest becouse the crew caller never had to call me for duty. I was informed of my next assingment before I tied up and started my rest period.

UPNW2-1083 Wrote:
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> Signalmaintainer is correct about the first part
> as for the second part, a manager or crew caller
> cannot order you to come back to work if you are
> not federally rested.

Well, here's a scenario (which has happened to me, and I'm sure many other Rails out there) worth asking. I'll preface this by saying that I work in passenger so I'm still under the old HOS laws.

Say the Railroad calls you to dogcatch a train, you only end up performing three service hours then go back home. Are you saying that the Railroad CANNNOT call you back two hours later and have you switch in the yard for seven hours?

My understanding is that they ARE allowed call you back to work, but not being rested you can only work up until the 12 hour limit started at first service without an undisturbed 10 hours. Likewise, you can work six hours switching, go home, get called by the Railroad two hours later to show up two hours after that then perform another two hours of switching (If they still allow an interim release you could get another six hours in!).

Of course, if they call you nine hours into your rest and ask you to show up in two hours you can say "HAAHAA, Restart my 10 and don't call me again!"

Jaanfo Wrote:
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> UPNW2-1083 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Signalmaintainer is correct about the first
> part
> > as for the second part, a manager or crew
> caller
> > cannot order you to come back to work if you
> are
> > not federally rested.
>
> Well, here's a scenario (which has happened to me,
> and I'm sure many other Rails out there) worth
> asking. I'll preface this by saying that I work
> in passenger so I'm still under the old HOS laws.
>
> Say the Railroad calls you to dogcatch a train,
> you only end up performing three service hours
> then go back home. Are you saying that the
> Railroad CANNNOT call you back two hours later and
> have you switch in the yard for seven hours?
>
> My understanding is that they ARE allowed call you
> back to work, but not being rested you can only
> work up until the 12 hour limit started at first
> service without an undisturbed 10 hours.
> Likewise, you can work six hours switching, go
> home, get called by the Railroad two hours later
> to show up two hours after that then perform
> another two hours of switching (If they still
> allow an interim release you could get another six
> hours in!).
>
> Of course, if they call you nine hours into your
> rest and ask you to show up in two hours you can
> say "HAAHAA, Restart my 10 and don't call me
> again!"

Right. It's not a matter of what they can do, it is a matter of whether the clock is running. The principle is an extension of the 4 hours undisturbed that stopped the clock under the old rules. The crew handles a train A to B in 5 hours and ties up. If they have 4 hours or more undisturbed rest the clock stops and they can be called back with 7 hours left. Let's say at the away terminal they get an hour call. If they go to the hotel to wait for a call, the best they can be back is 5 hours after tieup. To use them in less than that, they have to be called for the return when they tie up. That's nothing new, the principle is just more widely applied now. We would normally set the call for a return in 4 hours with a message delivered on tieup. (I know, that requires knowing what will happen four hours in the future when setting the call. Under the current rules, it takes knowing what will happen a whole 10 hours into the future!)

There was a lot of money to be made in the Portland-Wishram and Wishram-Pasco pools in the late 80s. Returning on 4 or continuous time from Wishram or Pasco was normal (those were relatively easy to pull off, I've also turned crews on 4 hours off at Wenatchee - a little more difficult to do) and we even turned crews back to the away terminal from home because they were first out with time left to work at the home terminal. To pull it off day after day, the plan had to be set with a high degree of precision and the trains had to be run exactly when they were supposed to. To pull this off, your scenario of work a 3 hour dogcatch then get a surprise call to come back just doesn't happen. Not knowing when you can be called and blowing the rest just doesn't happen either. <http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?11,1004899,1004899#msg-1004899&gt;

Crews are a valuable resource that should be making money on moving trains, not costing money in vans or waiting for vans. Track is a valuable resource that should be used for making money moving trains, not costing money parking trains that are waiting for crews in vans or that have crews on them who are waiting for a van.

TAW

When are the new HOS regulations for passenger suppossed to come out? Anyone care to guess on what they might be?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/10 06:41 by AmHog.

Brian Wrote:
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> 10 hours "undisturbed" rest. I have been told at
> the away from home terminal that my train was tied
> down in the yard and to show up in 10 hours on my
> rest. So technically I had 10 hours undisturbed
> rest becouse the crew caller never had to call me
> for duty. I was informed of my next assingment
> before I tied up and started my rest period.

You guys in train service get screwed a bit, methinks. If I work my 12 hours, then go off on HOS, I'm not going to arrive at the shop ready to work 10 hours later. Driving my company truck constitutes work, not rest. I'll go back on call and get into my truck after 10, or 11 or even 12 hours -- the law says a "minimum" of 10 hours, not a maximum.

Off topic, but something that bugs me. During a normal day, as a maintainer, I drive my company truck from Puyallup to Seattle and arrive at the shop at 6:30 a.m. I'm not paid for the drive in unless I'm called by my boss or the trouble desk (that rarely happens). So I'm in company property on my off-duty time.

Should I get in a wreck, however, the company will investigate me, even though I was not on duty. Nice.

Makes me think I should just drive my car back and forth to the shop, unless it's my protect weekend. Then I'm on the clock the moment the phone rings. One has to manage their exposure to the risk of discipline when working for the railroad.

I agree Paul. The lawyers and railroads found a loophole in the law. 10 hours undistrubed should mean 12 hours off total time period! Not 10. Also guys, where in the new HOS does it say specifically a persons undisturbed rest period starts over if anyone disrupts it before its complete? I can't find it. Must be in the Federal code somewhere. CN has violated this law before. Managers telling extra board employees to "show" back in 10 for the same job for a second day because there are no other people available. One time a Trainmaster recently even called a certain extra board employee at his house 3-4 hours into his mandatory undisturbed rest period to find out when he was rested and if he would "show" for a certain job in 10 hours! This was a clear violation. Unfortunately said employee agreed to do it. I would not of even answered the phone much less agreed to that...Thanks for all the help guys.

CNsucks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I agree Paul. The lawyers and railroads found a
> loophole in the law. 10 hours undistrubed should
> mean 12 hours off total time period! Not 10. Also
> guys, where in the new HOS does it say
> specifically a persons undisturbed rest period
> starts over if anyone disrupts it before its
> complete? I can't find it. Must be in the Federal
> code somewhere. CN has violated this law before.
> Managers telling extra board employees to "show"
> back in 10 for the same job for a second day
> because there are no other people available. One
> time a Trainmaster recently even called a certain
> extra board employee at his house 3-4 hours into
> his mandatory undisturbed rest period to find out
> when he was rested and if he would "show" for a
> certain job in 10 hours! This was a clear
> violation. Unfortunately said employee agreed to
> do it. I would not of even answered the phone
> much less agreed to that...Thanks for all the help
> guys.


Where are your local union chairman on this matter? Why aren't they confronting the carrier?

But the rule simply states 10 hours' undisturbed rest -- no contact from the company, period. We're told to turn off our cell phones the moment we get home. And I do not include my home phone number as a way the signal trouble desk can reach me. If the carrier doesn't have enough maintainers on call to handle the burden -- well, that's the carrier's decision.

And rest does not include travel back to headquarters for duty.

signalmaintainer Wrote:(snip)
>
> Off topic, but something that bugs me. During a
> normal day, as a maintainer, I drive my company
> truck from Puyallup to Seattle and arrive at the
> shop at 6:30 a.m. I'm not paid for the drive in
> unless I'm called by my boss or the trouble desk
> (that rarely happens). So I'm in company property
> on my off-duty time.
>
> Should I get in a wreck, however, the company will
> investigate me, even though I was not on duty.
> Nice.
>
> Makes me think I should just drive my car back and
> forth to the shop, unless it's my protect weekend.
> Then I'm on the clock the moment the phone rings.
> One has to manage their exposure to the risk of
> discipline when working for the railroad.


That's an interesting nuance in the way the agreement intersects with both the tax code, and, likely, your company's liability policy.

The general rule for tax purposes is that you're given a company car / truck for the convenience of the employer. You drive it for their convenience, with their tools, so you can be directed to a place of their need outside business hours. For that reason, the use of the truck isn't taxable income to you. (Since the company pays the gas, insurance, and absorbs the depreciation, you have a "free ride" under the code.)

If you use the truck for personal business, like driving four guys and a ton of beer up to the lake, you're supposed to report that as personal use and pay tax on it. If you lose the truck in the middle of the lake, or break an axle while offroading over downed tree trunks, the company will have your butt.

If you have an accident while driving to or from work, the other injured party may have redress to you and to the company. Driving after you've reported for work, the other injured person would have less or no claim on you, but state laws will vary on this point.

You might ask your steward if the union is aware of cases where accidents in company vehicles have resulted in damages to the employee. Technically, you're commuting to work (under the tax code), and technically, you haven't reported for work until you're inside your shop, or in the parking lot (again, rules vary).

One of my employees fell on the tile floor of our multi-company office building on a rainy day. Although her lawyers, our company lawyers, the building's lawyers, and the state worker's comp lawyers discussed the issue, she was still commuting to work until she reached our front door on the third floor. She accepted a generous settlement from the building's insurer, and didn't go on worker's comp.

The company could require you to drive your own car to work except on days or weekends where you're the protect guy. Practically speaking, that could increase your gas, insurance, and wear and tear on your own vehicle.

CNsucks Wrote:
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> I agree Paul. The lawyers and railroads found a
> loophole in the law. 10 hours undistrubed should
> mean 12 hours off total time period! Not 10.

It isn't a loophole. You are reading words that are not there. The rules and the federal regulations are read in the same way: word for word exactly what is there. It's just like a computer reading the instructions in the program. If the program instruction is put chartreuse on the screen here, it doesn't care if it is a picture of a Soo Line engine or an igloo, it does exactly what the instruction says. If it is wrong, a programmer needs to fix the instructions. Undisturbed rest used to apply only to a 4 hour release, now it applies to 10 hour rest.


>Also
> guys, where in the new HOS does it say
> specifically a persons undisturbed rest period
> starts over if anyone disrupts it before its
> complete? I can't find it. Must be in the Federal
> code somewhere.

Again, you have to read exactly what is there. The regulation says 10 hours undisturbed rest. If the company calls you after 3 hours off duty, 10 hours of undisturbed rest does not begin until 10 hours after you are done talking to them (and after you fill out a timeslip if they expect you to use professional knowledge such as why did you set 12 lbs when the computer thought you only need 10). I have turned in such timeslips. They tend to end such phone calls pretty soon, especially if HOS is involved. If they are calling you to go to work, the only thing that happens is the clock starts over until your rest meets the definition.

>CN has violated this law before.
> Managers telling extra board employees to "show"
> back in 10 for the same job for a second day
> because there are no other people available.

Nothing wrong with that. Look at it this way, if you know you are going to work on rest, you don't need to spend the next day protecting the phone because the lineup is worthless.

> One
> time a Trainmaster recently even called a certain
> extra board employee at his house 3-4 hours into
> his mandatory undisturbed rest period to find out
> when he was rested and if he would "show" for a
> certain job in 10 hours!

First, the rest example above covers that. Second, the TM is a plain and simple (simple literally and figuratively) idiot! The regulation also requires maintaining records. You use the records, don't call the guy!!!

> This was a clear
> violation. Unfortunately said employee agreed to
> do it.

It isn't a violation at all. The company is entitled to call you whenever they want. Nothing prohibits that. Once they call you, they must accept the consequences (rest starts over).

I would have stuck out a timeslip for that call (as long as I tied up in the prescribed manner). The employee is being disturbed to ask for professional information that should have come from another source.

>I would not of even answered the phone
> much less agreed to that...

That only works if you have a special number for the railroad or you really don't care if the railroad is controlling who else you talk to.


TAW

signalmaintainer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> You guys in train service get screwed a bit,
> methinks.
~~
~~
> Off topic, but something that bugs me. During a
> normal day, as a maintainer, I drive my company
> truck from Puyallup to Seattle and arrive at the
> shop at 6:30 a.m. I'm not paid for the drive in
> unless I'm called by my boss or the trouble desk
> (that rarely happens). So I'm in company property
> on my off-duty time.


..and that's where you guys got screwed. There was big discussion years ago when they began giving the maintainers trucks so that they would lose no time going on a call but were otherwise driving and responsible for a company vehicle on their off time. It was so much simpler when maintainers had motorcars; they couldn't take them home.


TAW

TAW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There was a lot of money to be made in the Portland-Wishram
> and Wishram-Pasco pools in the late 80s. Returning on 4 or
> continuous time from Wishram or Pasco was normal ... and we
> even turned crews back to the away terminal from home because
> they were first out with time left to work at the home terminal.

Yeah, Tom, I remember tripling the road out of Wishram when I worked that freight pool in the 70s. It became a little more difficult to do after the HOS changed from 14 to 12 but it was still not unusual.

Wrong. The show back on your rest clause in the new HOS is for employees on regular assignments NOT extra board employees. If I'm not rested for a call to work I'm not required to answer the phone! Hence the term "undisturbed rest." Most TY&E people know that and pick up on it as a new hire. The company cannot "do whatever they want." You sound like a railroad official!

CNsucks Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wrong. The show back on your rest clause in the
> new HOS is for employees on regular assignments
> NOT extra board employees. If I'm not rested for
> a call to work I'm not required to answer the
> phone! Hence the term "undisturbed rest." Most
> TY&E people know that and pick up on it as a new
> hire. The company cannot "do whatever they want."
> You sound like a railroad official!

citation? Have I missed it in the law? Exactly what words are you using to come to this conclusion? Are you citing your agreement? That has nothing in the law and I have never seen it if you are.

By the way, were I a railroad official would I have said that I would timeslip that kind of off duty call or that I have done so?

TAW

You make no sense at all. Who said anything about a "citation?" Railroad officials don't timeslip and do not encourage employees to do so for obvious reasons. Only an idiot picks up the telephone BEFORE they are legally rested! Your not required to so WHY would you do so? You don't need a "special number" to figure that one out.