Western Railroad Discussion > Aspergers Syndrome on and off the job

I started to hijack NS19K's previous post about persons with Aspergers and railroad jobs, but figured it would be more polite to start my own thread...

What if a person has Aspergers plus a warning from a Class I years ago for trespassing? How long does the warning remain in the computer system, and would someone have a chance to explain things, or be automatically disqualified from consideration for an interview? I can see how some meds frequently used with AS (Clonodine, Xanax, etc.) might make a person ineligible for jobs operating locomotives or machinery, but as others mentioned, there's lots of jobs that don't involve machinery, and there's also medications (SSRI's and others) which can treat AS related symptoms without carrying the "heavy machinery" restrictions, although many adults with AS are eventually able to function well without any meds.

I don't see myself becoming an engineer, because although I would enjoy operating a locomotive, I don't like schedule changes with little advance notice, as it sounds like is common among new Class I hires who usually get assigned to the extras board. Short lines might be more predictable, but pay appears to be much lower in general. There's lots of other railroad jobs that I may enjoy however, as I'm starting to get bored fixing desktop PC's after about a dozen years. Is it true that most railroaders hate their jobs and thus get annoyed by railfans or anyone else who enjoys trains? I've heard this from lots of people, yet it doesn't seem to be true among most of the railroaders I've met thus far.

It's great to see that there's at least a couple of other people with AS here at Trainorders. I'm just surprised that there's not more.

Here in the PNW region, it seems like several of the railfans I've met locally could meet most of the criteria for AS (and I don't just mean Ted's "Man Hobby Syndrome", we all have that, or we wouldn't be here!), yet no one else self identifies as being on the spectrum. At a social group I attend for adults with AS and other conditions, I'm the only person with trains as a special interest, and yet in a social skills class for kids that I will be helping an OT an an SLP to teach this Winter, our instructors tell me that trains are definitely the #1 special interest/obsession among the kids in their programs over the years.

I'm trying to figure out if nearly every kid with social deficits related to AS or other conditions outgrows their interest in trains, or if nearly every adult railfan outgrows any difficulties with social interaction they may have had when they were younger, such as difficulty maintaining eye contact, perseveration on a topic rather than back-and-fourth discussions, difficulty with boundaries related to personal space and/or property, difficulty reading "body language", difficulty differentiating between personal and impersonal, lack of "tact", and etc? I've come a long way myself, as you can see from the two photo's of me as a kid vs. an adult, although I'm still working on many things beyond just social skills, such as getting used to wearing shirts with "scratchy" fabric and/or collars.

AS and other parts of the autism "spectrum" disorders (ASD's) aren't things that people outgrow, although they can be managed through education, practice, and sometimes meds, so that someone with AS can live a happy and productive life. It takes a long time and lots of work however, often more than parents can manage on their own. If you have a niece, nephew, neighbor or etc. who's "on the spectrum" that also likes trains, take the time to ask their parents what some of the immediate goals for their child are, and how you might be able to help. It's easier to have patience in dealing with challenging behaviors if you understand what's causing them (noises, smells, changes in schedule, etc.), and how to minimize or prevent them. Helping someone with an ASD can this be very rewarding for everyone involved, and if you were "quirky" growing up, you may find that lots of things from your past make a lot more sense once you learn a little about ASD's.

Ben
Auburn, WA

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Rob Carlson was the founder of the Altamont Press timetables and died suddenly at age 48 of a heart attack. After his memorial service a group of us including his brother discussed Rob's "quirky" personality and concluded that indeed, he had Asbergers. Among many symptoms, the obsessive attention to detail which is required in his timetables stands out. In person he was somewhat "detached" but he did well as a ham operator and radio personality, removed from actual physical contact. He also had very set routines and resisted any change.
If you read Warren Buffet's "Snowball" biography, you will also see some Asberger's symptoms with his focus on numbers, competitive bridge playing, and social awkwardness until Kathrine Graham of the Washington Post took him under her wing and tutored him in the ways of polite society etc. It's an interesting condition.
C.

Carol Voss
Bakersfield, CA



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/05/10 10:38 by CarolVoss.

Ben:

Thanks for your thoughtful and forthright posting.

It's good to remember that while many of us joke about the quirkiness of railroad fans, there are also people within our ranks who struggle to overcome diagnosed and undiagnosed disorders. I was a slightly premature child of older parents, and as a result of poor lung development I struggled with severe bouts of bronchitis as a child and a teen. I loved the trains I saw and heard, and found my Lionel set endlessly fascinating. I was absent from school an average of 20 days a quarter, and I 'helped' my parents discover that building plastic model kits was an engaging and educational way for the three of us to deal with my at-home days. My Dad was transferred away from my hometown, my childhood friends, and my comfort zone when I was thirteen, and I never really adjusted. Trains filled the blank in what became a very desolate social life.

Trains, and my love of them, actually increased my social circle, my social skill sets, and expanded the closing walls of my world. I made friends then who have been my friends for life.

Clinical depression and borderline bipolar disorders affect many as well, and I've also qualified on some limited scales at various periods in my life. Trains have always been an anchor and a measure of self-awareness, and also have brought pride of accomplishment and new friends. It's interesting to me (a counselor might say 'clinically interesting') that in four decades of awareness, I've tended to 'graduate' myself from various hobbies (trains, model building, car restoration, music) as I elect to move myself into the next arena of social challenge, usually with work or relationships, or a big relocation by choice. Terminally shy but also ironically a bit of a showoff kid, I ended up as a professional narrator and copywriter.

But it always comes back to trains, to answer your question about 'outgrowing interest'. Right now I'm working on a volunteer railroad restoration project, and the subject of my attention is a piece of equipment that was part of a meaningful attachment in my teen years. Now it's a centerpiece of my daily attention, and seems to invigorate my work life and enhances a sense of connection to the good things about living. I've developed new friends around the world, and opened a new set of face-to-face social contacts. I've never struggled with the most delimiting aspects of something like Asperger's Syndrome, but I've certainly sampled from the subset of symptoms, as I suspect have many in the world of railroading, modeling, and railfanning.

As you've so eloquently observed.

In conspicuous ways, tolerance seems on the wane in modern life. Drawing social lines in the sand seems popular. Many cliques are formed to provide protection for people who benefit from sharing their 'difference' from others, and to enjoy the camaraderie that results from like-minded interests, and the company of people who seem to be wired the same way. Trains are but one religion. I've also noticed as that some railroaders seem to grumble, snipe, and prefer to close ranks; that some modelers nitpick, obsess, and have social interaction and hygiene issues; that some railfans are compulsive and have difficulty with basic social checks and balances. And everyone knows someone who's a crossover of all those qualities!

We're all on this team track together. The hiring world will be a tough nugget, but with discussions such as you've initiated here, there's an opportunity for learning and the elimination of prejudice. Thanks for your insights, and for sharing truthfully on an uncomfortable and sometimes misunderstood topic. Congrats on your continued hard work to manage the conditions you live with, and to your successes. Here's to all the lonely people, and may the most gregarious and well-adjusted among us, and the most reticent, continue to thrive in community together amid our common interests -- no matter how quirky!

~ Bob Z



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/05/10 23:38 by Notch16.

Again, as I did in the first thread, I'll cite myself, as a "victim" of a mild case of Aspergers. No, I didn't lose my love of trains. Or perhaps I did, and replaced it with a love of railroading. In this case, Trains+Understanding=Railroading. And I don't think I've lost my social ineptitude, either. This will probably become more apparent to me now that I'm retired from my all-by-myself tower job and have to interact a little more with people. I still prefer doing it over media such as this--I'd never make it as an Alpha Male, for sure!

Since I wrote the previous post a few years ago, I've seen how frustrating to myself this can be. There have been a couple of occasions in which I thought it would be great to get together with some old high-school classmates. So I did a lot of the work via e-mail and Facebook to bring a bunch of people together. Everybody had a great time, including me, but when it came time to actually talk to some of these people, I let my wife do it. That didn't make it a worse experience for me, but I don't know how many people realized that I can have a good time with folks just by letting my friends do most of the talking. I can stick a witty or sarcastic remark in there when I feel I need to, but when it comes to saying anything personal, with feeling, or even asking people how they're doing, it's an effort.

And when it comes to railfanning, I have one advantage in groups: it's natural for me to focus on the train (or the railroad--signals, and the like--when there's no train) instead of the people. I can answer 'most any question people ask me, but still have the tendency to hold back. I very much would prefer doing it alone, but would be devastated if most of these fans, once meeting me, got up and walked away because they thought I wasn't interested in them.

As I said...frustrating! Wouldn't wish it on anyone.

I suffer with AS everyday. Mine is untreated because I don't have ins. yet from work. I worked for UP for four years. My youngest son Jesse has it also. we are getting treatment for him so he doesn't have to suffer from it. He loves trains and want to work for the RR at some point. He is only 8 right now.

It is refreshing to see such eloquence and sensivity expressed here, or anywhere in today's world, for that matter. I admire the successes, born of hard work and courage, as described here. Thank you, AA

Stanford White
Carmel Valley, CA

Carol makes an interesting point about Buffett, certainly a prime candidate for AS. I have a 12-yr old son diagnosed with AS. It's frustrating at times, but I'm learning to separate what he can and cannot control. And it's not all bad, AS folks are VERY GOOD at certain things. Attention to detail with regard to their interests is a biggie, almost obsessive in nature.

M-636 Wrote:
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>And it's not all bad, AS
> folks are VERY GOOD at certain things. Attention
> to detail with regard to their interests is a
> biggie, almost obsessive in nature.

And that was Rob Carlson's approach, fierce attachment to what he was doing, intense focus to the exclusion of anything else.
C.

Carol Voss
Bakersfield, CA

Getting back to the poster's original question. The railroad environment is also a social environment, you have to work with and under the direction of your fellow employees and managers. You also have to have a good sense of humor and no temper, as you will become the butt of someone's joke, or a critical rant. The railroad has many many different personalities, and a failure to get along with someone will be seen as failure on your part as much as a failure on the other guy's part. Railroads will frown upon any social troubles that you may have, and that alone could disqualify you from being hired.

Ted Curphey
Ontario, OR

A thoughtful post!
Echoing Teds comments, the railroad can be a very harsh "Boys club" to work at. If ANY weakness, both in character or in personal feelings is perceived, it is poked, needled and prodded by the rest of the railroaders until some kind of reaction comes about. It can sometimes be like a group of catty high-school girls...gossip and rumors, etc. And fights have occasionally happened (which is an automatic termination if you fight on company property..what you do in the wal-mart parking lot after hours is your business).
Now, these situations are RARE...and generally speaking most railroaders anymore are required to be more socially aware and sensitive, and it's a good thing.
Generally speaking, if you do hire out, don't be afraid to ask specific questions about the job--but also be prepared to defend your question to some ass who thinks you should *know* this stuff already. My standard answer was either "Hey, I'm new--and I'm trying to learn this." or "Hey, I'm dumb, run that by me again." I know it's a classic deflection syndrome, but it seems to knock down the old heads a bit and gets them to open up...ALso, try not to get involved in the drama of the other workers, and try to keep a low profile.
ANd there are times, where you can learn much more by keeping your mouth shut than by opening it.

I can think of several people I work with that would qualify as having some conditions parked along the AS Spectrum. Most of them are considered "odd" but are respected for their ability to focus on getting the work done...which is a challenge on some days!

For the record, We don't *all* hate the railroad. If we did we would've quit (and we wouldn't be here, hanging out "after hours" talking about trains!). For me, I get the most joy and satisfaction when I'm out there running the engine, trying to do the best I can. There are, of course, aspects of the job that bore/annoy/anger us--but then what job doesn't have that?
Railroads have many career paths--and although T&E can seem the most glamorous to us railroad buffs, it can also be the most difficult to adapt to as a person with AS.
I'm a 15 year employee, and I"m still on an extraboard (although it's a good board that only protects 5 outpost jobs and has an eithe r8am or 8pm call time). I am on call 6 days a week. Having the phone ring and having to literally drop everything and get ready to work is not the life for some people--especially those that need structure to maintain order in their lives...
SHortlines have somewhat better hours, but not all of them do. and they pay much less than class ones. Class ones are harder to get a foot in the door of, and I don't know if they'd even consider hiring someone if they knew they had AS...even though that is discrimination, they'd find something else to skip you. The railroad does thorough background checks.
Lots of people start at a shortline, then get some experience and then go to a class one...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/05/10 19:51 by DrLoco.

AS; that explains a lot about all the foamers i meet trackside.

A very interesting thread. After spending some time researching AS this afternoon, I've come to the conclusion that like many other mental variations most of us probably have a touch of it, it's pretty obviously I do going by the symptom lists alone. After all "normal" is an abstract collision of the bell curves of all the variations, known and as yet unknown.

I am comforted by this quote in one of the sources I found http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-the-main-symptoms-of-aspergers-syndrome-in-adults.htm:

"Essentially, Asperger's syndrome causes behavior that can best be described as "quirky." Bill Gates, Woody Allen, Bob Dylan, Keanu Reeves, Al Gore, and Garrison Keillor are some of the many notable public figures who experts believe show symptoms of Asperger's syndrome. There is also some evidence to suggest that Albert Einstein and Isaac Newton suffered from the condition as well."

I'll accept the possibility of being in the company of these people....<GBG>

lowwater

Well put. I have a nephew who perhaps has AS, and a close friend whose son has it

John

Thanks for all of the replies and personal stories, some of which are very inspiring, as well as the candid comments about RR workplace culture.

It's nice that some of you have pointed out some of the positive qualities of people with AS, such as attention to detail, being highly focused and self motivated, feeling a sense of ownership of our work and company, and possibly fun to be around once people learn to understand our quirkiness and unusual sense of humor.

I haven't read "Snowball" yet, as there's many different biographies of Warren Buffett, but that one sounds especially interesting and worth a read. Given his age, Buffett has had lots of time to learn social things the hard way that most people know instinctively, but I would be interested to read about what he was like when he was younger and some of the gaffes he might have made.

One of my dr.'s once told me once after reading a biography that he thought that James J. Hill of GN fame may have been on the spectrum, with some of his odd behaviors (He tried to change his name to Napoleon when he was younger), and his obsession/focus on trade with Asia.

It's great to see so many services available for today's youth that weren't available to previous generations. I get excited whenever I meet someone else with AS who's managed to become more socially adept than myself, despite them having greater difficulties in the early years of life, thanks to quality early interventions such as social skills groups, speech, and OT. While public schools are required to provide some services for free under IDEA law, most are able to provide fewer hours than many children need, but with a dr.'s prescription, additional services can be obtained at hospitals and therapy centers. Most states, including the one where I live, have laws which prohibit the providing of disability related services for children because a family is unable to pay, which for many families means being unable to afford the high cost of co-pays (often 50%), despite having private insurance. At the therapy center I volunteer for, only 1% of families of the 1,859 children we served last year were able to pay for 100% of the out of pocket costs for therapy. Availability of services shrinks drastically at age 21, as there's few programs designed for adults, no coverage under most insurance plans, and no mandate for coverage in most states. Also, about 80% of adults formally diagnosed with AS are either unemployed or underemployed, and many live with their parents. The 80% figure is a bit misleading however, because there's lots of adults who may have AS but were never formerly diagnosed, but are gainfully employed. Most states do not consider AS to be a disability in regards to employment, just developmental disabilities which include mental retardation. AS by definition requires an average or higher IQ. I have a job and my own place, so I would be considered to be in the top 20%. While it's annoying to be told "you should be happy fixing PC's because that's a job people with AS are well suited for", I'm grateful to have any job at all, given the statistics.

I hope that 10-20 years from now, we will see a lot more people with AS working for the railroads and other professions currently considered to be "unsuitable" for them, even though co-workers might not guess they have AS, because they've become so good at "pretending to be normal". It would also be great to see the RR's become a little more sensitive to diverse employee populations, as I don't know that I would be able to fit in at a Class I currently, although perhaps I could in the future, either by improving on my social weaknesses or through a shift in culture at the RR's.


Regarding Ted's and DrLoco's comments, I would be interested to know how certain situations would be handled in the RR workplace compared to my current job.

Ted - "The railroad has many many different personalities, and a failure to get along with someone will be seen as failure on your part as much as a failure on the other guy's part."

DrLoco - "Echoing Teds comments, the railroad can be a very harsh "Boys club" to work at. If ANY weakness, both in character or in personal feelings is perceived, it is poked, needled and prodded by the rest of the railroaders until some kind of reaction comes about."

My social skills have improved to the point that I generally get along with all of my co-workers in the workplace, even though I've never been invited to recreational events outside of work. However, there was one co-worker that I didn't get along with previously, who since moved on to another employer by his own choice.

While I'm knowledgeable in many technical areas, I'm also very gullible and naive in social arenas, which this co-worker picked up on. When I tried to learn how to "talk trash" with the guys at work, this co-worker told me that some of the other guys were p***ed off about some of the stuff I said, and they were going to "beat the s**t" out of me. Of course none of them were actually mad at me, but they found the situation humorous, and I was even able to laugh at myself this one time. The co-worker took things too far however, and soon was getting other co-workers to join in on his pranks, trying to convince me of ridiculous things that weren't true, and then he would go around work saying things like "Can you believe Ben really fell for that? What a f***ing retard!". I was starting to get annoyed and asked him to tone it down a bit, but he said I was too sensitive and couldn't take a joke. I was about to complain to my boss about his behavior, but I didn't have to because she noticed what was going on and talked to him on her own, after which he mellowed out a bit. I can take a joke or a prank now and then, but being called a retard by a co-worker everyday is unacceptable to me, yet I'm not the type of person who would fight with a co-worker in a parking lot.

Would a supervisor have intervened on their own in this situation in the RR workplace, and if not, would asking a supervisor for help be seen as a weakness or failure on my part, with the expectation being that these sorts of issues should be settled in a parking lot rather than the office? If the above example doesn't cross the line between joking and workplace harassment and/or bullying, then where is that line in the RR industry? I can put up with a lot of stuff if I can at least be expecting it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/06/10 17:57 by benthere.

Does anyone have an answer regarding my initial question about a warning from a Class I for trespassing and how that would affect hiring?

Someone mentioned that there's thorough background checks, but if one's background is 100% clean other than the above, and one has a good work and credit history, would an employer take the time to ask about the above, or automatically disqualify the applicant?

In my instance, I was in town and stopped by BNSF HQ to buy some stuff from their gift store, not realizing they were closed on weekends, and that the store is only for employees and registered guests, as neither of these were listed on their website or at the HQ entrance at the time. Security took my info and asked me to leave before I even made it across the parking lot to the building.

That doesn't seem like a big deal to me, but if they just see a generic "contacted/warned for trespassing" on a background check, I wonder if they would assume the worst (climbing moving equipment, standing on a bridge to take photo's, walking in the gauge, or etc.), go into their computer for more info, or dismiss it as unimportant since it didn't warrant an actual citation or arrest.

I think only BNSF will have a record of your encounter with their security, not UP, etc. If you don't disclose the encounter and don't get hired, you'll wonder if it was because of it and that if you had explained it, that you would have been hired. If you disclose the encounter and don't get hired, you'll wonder if they wouldn't have spotted it and hired you. I'm a non-railroader and have no insider knowledge, but I would explain it and let the chips fall where they may.

mapboy