Steam & Excursion > Question for Valve Gear Gurus

Jim Herron sent me this image from the Barriger online collection and asked what kind of valve gear this is. I don't have a clue, but I am impressed by nickle plated cylinder head covers on a USRA 2-10-2. Looks like it would fail easily. Reminds me of a basket case brass engine I once rescued.

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My guess is Dekle or some sort of modified Hackworth. This will require some research.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/14 18:57 by CPengineer.

Rube Goldberg?

HotWater Wrote:
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> Rube Goldberg?

That would appear to be as good a guess as any!

Bob Callahan
Monticello, IN

More like Rube's neer do well brother in law.

Looks like Marshall or hackworth. Note the vertical eccentric rod that goes engages a tumbling rocker that gives cut off, reverse, etc. These valve gears are much simpler to construct, fewer parts, no links/link blocks on some, ie Marshall version one and three if I recall. Problem is any vertical displacement of the axle due to springing serves to either hook up or lengthen cut off. These valve gears were used more in marine applications although the Brits also used it, especially on smaller locomotives. Photo one shows Marshall and photo two shows the hackworth tumbling link. These photos are from http://www.martynbane.co.uk/modernsteam/klr/badger.htm. Check out the Dockstader valve gear simulations for a visual representation and animation of how it works. A very neat solution to the valve gear problem!

Best,

Stathi

Efstathios I Pappas, MS
Chief Mechanical Officer
Mt Rainier Scenic Rairoad

Posted from iPhone



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/14 10:46 by PorterNo2.

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I wonder what railroad that engine belonged to?

Not Young.

Perhaps Southern?

Posted from Android

Both Hackworth and Southern have in common that when the wheel with eccentric moves up or considerbly down, timing is affected.

This IS a mystery.

I don't believe it's either a Hackworth or Marshall/Hackworth.

Definitely, not Southern.

I has NO LEAD. Suitable, perhaps, to a slow speed industrial or marine engine, but what demon would possess a locomotive designer to try this?

Any idea what engine this is?

As Arte Johnson (Laugh-In) used to say, "Verrrry in-ter-est-ing!"

-John Stein aka Larry Doyle



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/14 16:46 by LarryDoyle.

I'm 99% sure the locomotive is Seaboard Air Line 2495.

This does not look like any Marshall or Hackworth I have ever seen. However, it does look like it could be a modified marshall hiding behind that strip of metal used as a motion bracket.

I see what could be the marshall 'scissors' but do not see any hackworth slide.

The two are fairly interchangeable as they create basically the same motion - Marshall is an improvement because it uses rotating motion instead of sliding motion - creating something that doesn't wear as fast and easier to keep lubed.

I have never seen it on a large locomotive like that. Only small plantation and light industrial engines. I have a live steamer with hackworth gear and am consulting on one being built with marshall.

Very interesting find, thanks for sharing.

-Mike

Mike Massee
Tehachapi, CA
Photography, Railroading and more..

CPengineer Wrote:
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> I'm 99% sure the locomotive is Seaboard Air Line
> 2495.

I'm about 99% sure you are right. 1948 diagram book shows Dekle for SAL No. 2495. I saw a picture of the engine said to be taken in 1947 where it still had Southern valve gear. Why would the railroad do something like that so late in the game. I know nothing about Dekle valve gear. What were its favorable features?

By the way, in 1948 No. 2495 was being used in yard transfer service in Atlanta.

I think I will change my 99% sure to 100%.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/14 22:10 by ts1457.

ts1457 Wrote:
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> 1948 diagram book shows Dekle for SAL No. 2495.

Patent application for Dekle valve gear (1941): http://www.google.com/patents/US2416982

johnacraft Wrote:
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> ts1457 Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > 1948 diagram book shows Dekle for SAL No. 2495.
>
> Patent application for Dekle valve gear (1941):
> http://www.google.com/patents/US2416982

Wow! Thanks for digging that out. The dates seem to fit the SAL No. 2495 situation. I still can't figure out why Seaboard would be experimenting with steam at that date after being firmly committed to dieselization. I am awaiting expert commentary.

ts1457 Wrote:
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> Wow! Thanks for digging that out.

It was incredibly difficult - I Googled 'Dekle Valve Gear' and it was the third result ;)

I have to second a sentiment posted on the rypn thread, looking at the patent info and reading the description, this photo does not look at all like Deckle valve gear unless there was an additional variant of some sort. There is no southern style link, the eccentric rod is vertical, etc. Also, the photo seems to be earlier than the 1940s to my eye, notice the lack of a valve cross head, primitive guide mechanism for the valve rod integral with the cross head guide brace, lack of dents and wrinkles in the jacket, clean and smooth plumbing, etc. This doesn't look like an freight or transfer engine in service post WW2. To my eye it looks like the early 20s and still fresh from the builder. I think there is more going on here, Don is there any data to go with the photo from Baringer?

Best,

Stathi

Posted from iPhone

PorterNo2 Wrote:
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> I have to second a sentiment posted on the rypn
> thread, looking at the patent info and reading the
> description, this photo does not look at all like
> Deckle valve gear unless there was an additional
> variant of some sort. There is no southern style
> link, the eccentric rod is vertical, etc. Also,
> the photo seems to be earlier than the 1940s to my
> eye, notice the lack of a valve cross head,
> primitive guide mechanism for the valve rod
> integral with the cross head guide brace, lack of
> dents and wrinkles in the jacket, clean and smooth
> plumbing, etc. This doesn't look like an freight
> or transfer engine in service post WW2. To my eye
> it looks like the early 20s and still fresh from
> the builder. I think there is more going on here,
> Don is there any data to go with the photo from
> Baringer?
>
> Best,
>
> Stathi

OK, I cited the SAL 1948 diagram book showing Dekle for No. 2495.

Richard E. Prince's Seaboard Air Line Railway Steam Boats, Locomotives, and History shows no. 2495 on P. 180 in a Frank E. Ardrey photo. The caption reads: "B1 No. 2495 Santa Fe type at Southern Ry Inman Yard on transfer run in 1947." The locomotive has a switch engine foot board style pilot.

Langley, Beckum, and Tidwell's Seaboard Air Line Railway Album on P. 62 also has a D. W. Salter photo of No. 2495. The caption there say: "The Atlanta Belt Line ... connected the SAL mainline at Emory to the Georgia Railroad at Hulsey. Santa Fe type 2495, carrying white signals, has a good roll on a transfer cut in May 1948." In that picture the engine still has a footboard pilot.

The engine definitely has alligator crosshead guides in the 1947 picture. The 1948 picture is more head-on, but I believe it does in that one, too.

Both photographers are known to be reliable in captioning their pictures.

OK, I've done a bit more work. The value gear in the 1947 photo matches the Dekle drawing. If you look at the sequence of Barriger pictures, another picture follows that shows the engine to be SAL Rwy. No. 2495. It has a road pilot. The Barriger pictures, I believe, were circa 1940. In 1940, Samuel D. Dekle was a 23 year old machinist with 4 years of college living in Jacksonville FL. I suspect the valve gear on the No. 2495 then was probably an early attempt by him at designing a valve gear which culminated in what we see in the patent application and the 1947 picture of the engine.

Jack Wyatt



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/14 13:54 by ts1457.

Jack,

Can you post those pictures you have? The reason I am asking is as follows. In the pic I found off a google search of the locomotive I see a number of things that make me wonder. First of all, in this photo which appears to be from later in the locomotive's career, it does indeed have the valve stem cross head guide which is lacking in Don's photo. To not have this feature is far less common in the modern era, and it seems unlikely to have eliminated this feature which by the 1940s was accepted as necessary for piston valve locomotives in heavy service. Second, the Dekle valve gear patent drawings do not match the photo Don posted unless there is a variant that we are missing, otherwise Dekle looks like a Southern valve gear derivative. Notice the vertical eccentric rod, lack of a curved link, etc. I think Don's photo, if it is of the same engine, might be a much earlier experimental valve gear. Conversion to Dekle later in its life seems to have been far less of a stretch if it already had Southern valve gear at the time as the curved link, eccentric crank, eccentric rod, etc might have been adaptable to the new arrangement.

Best,

Stathi

Photo One, SAL 2495
Photo Two, Dekle Valve Gear Patent Drawing
Photo Three, Don's original photo

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Jack, looks like we are arriving at similar conclusions at the same time, I enjoy this type of research, well done!

Best,

Stathi