Steam & Excursion > Santa Fe 3751 vs NKP 765

It is strange how one steam group in the Midwest (NKP 765 to Galesburg, IL) is able to run mainline excursion trains while another in California is not.
What is going on? Maybe we need to find the people that can put these trips together and make it work? All of these various steam groups have worked very hard for many years to preserve our rail history at a great expense and many different people spending their time free of charge. True, the rail industry, including Amtrak, have the right to determine who operates on their property, but the publicity to the rail industry receives is a huge bonus that does not appear on their bottom line. As a lifetime railfan and railroader i still don't understand. Maybe we can use this forum to find a way to find ways to put positive thinking and energy into the rail industry towards running these historic machines. Positive Train Control plus other technical and safety issues are going to continue to be a problem we have to deal with in order to make our labor on steam pay off. 
Stan Mathews, Midwest Central RR in Mt. Pleasant, Iowa told me years ago when I asked him why he devoted so much time and money collecting, maintaining and running 3' gauge trains in a small park. His answer was that he knew he could always fire up and run the MC RR steam when ever they wanted without permission from any other RR. I joined them and helped them run their train around a closed loop. It was great! But mainline steam is great too!
Steve Rippeteau

---

---

---

I have never seen the Santa Fe 3751 in person; however I have seen and ridden behind the NKP 765.  My guess is that the 765 is a more modern steam engine that was originally built in September 1944 whereas the 3751 dates from 1927.  The 765 is one of the finest steam engines ever built and keep in mind that this engine has been completely rebuilt from the frame up by its owner, the Fort Wayne Railroad Historical Society.  My guess is that the 765 is better suited for operation with Amtrak and pulling special trains.  My comments are not to put the 3751 down nor its owners.  I'm sure that these folks are working just as hard to maintain the 3751 as are the owners of 765.
John



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/27/16 02:52 by ClubCar.

Railroads and publicity from steam? I don't think they care about that.

Posted from Android

This has absolutely nothing to do with being allowed to run or not. It's either up to fra standards or it isn't. The host railroads then decide if there is enough insurance to cover the move.

Everything I have read says that someone sold tickets to a trip that hadn't been approved yet and is trying to save face. Poorly I might add.

Joe


ClubCar Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have never seen the Santa Fe 3751 in person;
> however I have seen and ridden behind the NKP
> 765.  My guess is that the 765 is a more modern
> steam engine that was originally built in
> September 1944 whereas the 3751 dates from 1927. 
> The 765 is one of the finest steam engines ever
> built and keep in mind that this engine has been
> completely rebuilt from the frame up by its owner,
> the Fort Wayne Railroad Historical Society.  My
> guess is that the 765 is better suited for
> operation with Amtrak and pulling special
> trains.  My comments are not to put the 3751 down
> nor its owners.  I'm sure that these folks are
> working just as hard to maintain the 3751 as are
> the owners of 765.
> John

railscenes,
Here are a few points to consider relative to the environment that Santa Fe 3751 has to contend with:

1) For an excursion from LAUPT to San Diego, the equipment consists of all "sealed up" Amtrak passenger equipment, thus passengers could have the same "riding experience" as taking a normal Amtrak passenger train.

2) An excursion to San Diego involves a pretty lengthy time consuming operation to turn the locomotive.

3) An excursion to Barstow would also involve a lengthy time consuming operation to turn the locomotive & train, not to mention upsetting the operation of the very busy Barstow Yard Terminal.

4) the entire LA basin is an extremely busy complex for both BNSF and UP. Neither railroad is all that happy to have a steam locomotive, with all the trackside fans, plugging up the system.

ClubCar Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have never seen the Santa Fe 3751 in person;
> however I have seen and ridden behind the NKP
> 765.  My guess is that the 765 is a more modern
> steam engine that was originally built in
> September 1944 whereas the 3751 dates from 1927. 
> The 765 is one of the finest steam engines ever
> built and keep in mind that this engine has been
> completely rebuilt from the frame up by its owner,
> the Fort Wayne Railroad Historical Society.  My
> guess is that the 765 is better suited for
> operation with Amtrak and pulling special
> trains.  My comments are not to put the 3751 down
> nor its owners.  I'm sure that these folks are
> working just as hard to maintain the 3751 as are
> the owners of 765.
> John

3751 is a "modern" as any other mainline engine out there.  The Santa completely rebuilt the entire 3751 Class (in the late 1930's?) to what it is today.  Probably very little of the 1927 machine still exists today.

ClubCar Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have never seen the Santa Fe 3751 in person;
> however I have seen and ridden behind the NKP
> 765.  My guess is that the 765 is a more modern
> steam engine that was originally built in
> September 1944 whereas the 3751 dates from 1927. 
> The 765 is one of the finest steam engines ever
> built and keep in mind that this engine has been
> completely rebuilt from the frame up by its owner,
> the Fort Wayne Railroad Historical Society.  My
> guess is that the 765 is better suited for
> operation with Amtrak and pulling special
> trains.  My comments are not to put the 3751 down
> nor its owners.  I'm sure that these folks are
> working just as hard to maintain the 3751 as are
> the owners of 765.
> John

As per steamlocomotive.com regarding the 3751 class:

Built in 1927, converted to oil burners in 1937-38. A more significant rebuild (Locobase 14963) saw engines get new frames, lengthened smokebox, new rods, 80-in (2,032 mm) Boxpok drivers and Timken roller bearings on all axles in 1939-1940. After the rebuild, which also included redesigned steam passages and steam pressure raised to 230 psi (15.85 bar) , the engines were rated at 90 mph and often ran at 100 mph or more.

Saying 3751 is an old 1927, non-modern design is not entirely correct. Nor do I think it has really anything to do with whether it gets to run on the mainline or not.

I think it has to do with the tremendous railroad traffic here in southern California first and foremost. It's my impression that it is really hard to run excursions here, period.

railscenes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What is going on? Maybe we need to find the people
> that can put these trips together and make it
> work?

Maybe you mean, "they" need to find "the people"?

I think SP #4449 vs SP&W #700 is a much better
example, and I've always wondered why the #4449
group was able to run such a greater number of
excursions through the years.  Both engines share
the same building, same state and host railroads.

As for #3751, well... it's in California.   As I under-
stand it, things work differently there, lol - than the
other 49 states.  Possibly the traffic density is much
greater leaving fewer opportunities to fit an excursion
in, though, keep in mind, there have been many
proposed runs and almosts.  It is quite a shame,
after all the time and money invested in #3751,
that it runs so rarely.

I assume there are groups out there that exist to
/and share their input with other groups, but it
would seem beneficial if such a group was
better funded vs perhaps all volunteer? 

/Mitch

Not really sure what all the complaining is about. The 3751 group tried to get an excursion set. I am sure they did their due diligence with all entities involved. For whatever reason ( and really it doesn't matter what it was) one of the railroads involved decided it wasn't going to work at that time. This isn't a win or lose situation. They simply will go about trying to setup something else down the road. There is absolutely no reason to blame this person or blame that group. It just didn't work out this time. Move on, let the 3751 group work on something else at a different date and hopefully it will work out that time. Until then, relax and enjoy the steam engines that we do have running.

I was the Convention Chairman for the 2008 AAPRCO Convention in San Pedro, CA.

​One of the highlights was a trip from Los Angeles to San Diego and return to San Pedro.

​It took several months and several face to face meetings with BNSF, Amtrak, Metrolink and San Diego Northern personel to make it happen.

​One of the requirements was that a previously planned excursion to San Diego be successful. That happened.
 
The size of our train created the real logistics problem, we were 26 cars long. No room at the depot for that long a train, going south to National City to turn on the balloon was out so we dropped people of in Old town, then staged the train in the clear while the 3751 went to Miramar to turn on the wye. A 4 hour layover was part of the cedule for crew rest.

​We had 3 Amtrak P-42's on the train, but they were only used pulling Miramar Hill.

​On the insurance side AAPRCO had to purchase a 3d party policy in the event a railfan crashed an automobile chasing the train. That was not cheap either.

​All went well until we were scheduled to depart. Someone decided to commit suicide by train near Capistrano and our departure was delayed at least 3 hours.

​The return run was uneventfull. We stopped at Hobart to drop the 3751 because neither they nor PHL wanted it to travel the line to San Pedro's 6th St. Yard.

​Note: There was a lot less traffic then than there is today. I doubt very much that we could do that trip again.

​Pic taken from open doors on Party Car Pony Express. This car has been on several 3751 excursions.

​



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/27/16 08:03 by px320.

---

px320 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I was the Convention Chairman for the 2008 AAPRCO
> Convention in San Pedro, CA.
>
> ​One of the highlights was a trip from Los
> Angeles to San Diego and return to San Pedro.
>
> ​It took several months and several face to face
> meetings with BNSF, Amtrak, Metrolink and San
> Diego Northern personel to make it happen.
>
> ​One of the requirements was that a previously
> planned excursion to San Diego be successful. That
> happened.
>  
> The size of our train created the real logistics
> problem, we were 26 cars long. No room at the
> depot for that long a train, going south to
> National City to turn on the balloon was out so we
> dropped people of in Old town, then staged the
> train in the clear while the 3751 went to Miramar
> to turn on the wye. A 4 hour layover was part of
> the cedule for crew rest.
>
> ​We had 3 Amtrak P-42's on the train, but they
> were only used pulling Miramar Hill.
>
> ​On the insurance side AAPRCO had to purchase a
> 3d party policy in the event a railfan crashed an
> automobile chasing the train. That was not cheap
> either.
>
> ​All went well until we were scheduled to
> depart. Someone decided to commit suicide by train
> near Capistrano and our departure was delayed at
> least 3 hours.
>
> ​The return run was uneventfull. We stopped at
> Hobart to drop the 3751 because neither they nor
> PHL wanted it to travel the line to San Pedro's
> 6th St. Yard.
>
> ​Note: There was a lot less traffic then than
> there is today. I doubt very much that we could do
> that trip again.
>
> ​Pic taken from open doors on Party Car Pony
> Express. This car has been on several 3751
> excursions.
>
This was a really fun trip for my wife and myself. The train did get tied down really late in San Pedro and by the time the shuttle bus got us back to LAUPT, all of our possible connections had left for the day. We did manage to rest in the station until we were able to connect on the first train out in the morning to get us back home.

-Fred-

Keep in mind that the 765 stood static from 2006-2009.

I can think of at least four trips that were cancelled and a few more that were stillborn during those years. One operation we had to cancel the week we were set to mail out the invitations/announcement to our members. During that time the FWRHS was chided for the apparent lack of progress on the operations front, despite the continued effort to make good on the locomotive's rebuild. There were political issues, insurance issues, bridge issues -- you name it.

For each trip that happens successfully, there's probably four others that never made it to term.

KL
FWRHS

Regarding comments about LA to San Diego 3751 trips:

First, passengers are not all "sealed up" on trips.  Some Amtrak equipment has been used in the past and also private cars have been used.  On the June 2010 trip to San Diego, I spent the entire time in the Pony Express.

Second, while it does take some time to wye (Miramar wye is about 15 miles north of the San Diego station), there is sufficient layover time in San Diego to do that.

Third, the BNSF freight line from LA to Fullerton is only "plugged up" a short distance.  The distance from Union Station to Fullerton is 26 miles and there have been no stops until Fullerton.  The San Diego line then branches off from the BNSF freight line at that point.

There is some great running  along the ocean from south of Doheny Beach.  Also, at Oceanside, the 3751 has been watered and a runby has been done.

I personally believe that the San Diego trips are great one day trips.  Over Cajon to Barstow would be great, but....

Steve

The 3751 is actually a relatively modern steam loco being rebuilt about 3 times by the ATSF including oil burner and roller bearings.
The SBRHS has put much more time and money into modernizing the 3751 (on par with 765) to todays standards to qualify to run 70+ miles perhour with any passenger and freight equipment on the rails today.
What is needed is for us to dig deep and change our mind set as a whole railfan/historian/mechanical group from the negative to positive. I worked the mainline of the Santa Fe Railway for 42 years during a period of huge change and massive increase in traffic. In 1992 when Santa Fe decided they wanted steam powered excursion train with 3751 for employee recognition they did it. Was there disruption of traffic? No, the 3751 out ran the rest of the trains and the expectations of Santa Fe management. I personally heard the the VP of Operations say that while working the train as conductor. The nay sayers said yes. But any train disrupts traffic especially the long heavy underpowered freights with broken down power.
In 1992 The Santa Fe put out a call to their employees to volunteer to help operate this special train. In spite of negative mistakes from both management and labor we ran the train. The differences were not over train issues they were sparked by negative personalities and attitudes. It worked! I participated with the Ft Madison, IA crew from the beginning in 1992. The ATSF and later the BNSF ran other steam powered excursions, Milw 261 and SP 4449 in black along with numerous other diesel powered excursions thru the heaviest traffic without serious problems. So it is obvious to me that rail management and/or steam groups in various locations have a problem. More than the technical or operating issues.

Our collective problem is we do not have enough positive thinking people in position to represent our collective goals to accomplish regular steam excursion programs. Reading some of the above postings makes my point. While it is good to have a valid "devil's advocate" we continue to dwell on the negative aspects. One insinuated it was up to the individual groups to deal with the RR. Our own federal goverment, shippers and labor unions found out over a century ago that does not work when negotiating with rail management. We need a uninification of our various steam groups to select people with positive ideas to help us run these massive historic machines. We used to joke while i worked on the Santa Fe that someone who was a constant nay sayer or insulted people failed to read Dale Carnagie's book HOW TO WIN FRIENDS AND INFLUENCE PEOPLE. So I read the book.
Thanks to all for the in put!
Steve Rippeteau

Posted from iPhone



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/27/16 22:27 by railscenes.

Just for the record, and not official, 3571 operations since restoration in 1991:
...(compare it to non-UP steam locomotives)...
1981 - San Bernardino Railroad Historical Society formed - SBRHS. org
1986 - ATSF 3751 moved to California Steel Industries, Fontana
1991 - First steam trials, Fontana, California Steel Industries
1991 - First mainline test, San Bernardino to LA and return, Santa Fe (no diesel)
1991 - “The California Limited” excursion, LA to Bakersfield – Santa Fe
1992 - Santa Fe “Employees Recognition Excursion”, LA, Topeka, Chicago
1995 - “Sunkist Orange Blossom Festival” display Riverside - Santa Fe
1996 - “Sunkist Orange Blossom Festival” display Riverside - Santa Fe
1999 -  San Bernardino to Amtrak Facility, Redondo Junction  
1999 - “Railfair 99” display at Sacramento - BNSF and UP Railroad
2000 - Movie shoot, Los Angeles, "Pearl Harbor"
2001 - “Fullerton Railroad Days” display, BNSF, Amtrak  
2002 - Public excursion - LA to Williams, AZ, Grand Canyon RR, Amtrak
2004 - San Bernardino Santa Fe Depot Grand Opening display - Metrolink
2004 - Educational Outreach Program (EOP) display San Pedro - PHL
2005 - Special display, LA Union Passenger Terminal, Amtrak
2005 - “Fullerton Railroad Days” display, BNSF, Amtrak  
2005 - EOP display, LA Union Passenger Terminal - Amtrak
2006 - EOP display, LA Union Passenger Terminal - Amtrak
2007 - EOP display, LA Union Passenger Terminal - Amtrak
2007 - EOP display at San Pedro – Pacific Harbor Lines
2007 - “Fullerton Railroad Days” display – BNSF, Amtrak
2008 - “Fullerton Railroad Days” display – BNSF, Amtrak
2008 - “San Diego Steam Special” excursion - LA to San Diego - Amtrak
2008 - AAPRCO Convention excursion –LA-San Diego, 24 coaches–Amtrak
2009 - National Train Day display, LA Union Passenger Terminal– Amtrak  
2010 - “San Diego Steam Special II” excursion - LA to San Diego – Amtrak
2010 - “San Bernardino Railroad Days 1”-excursion-BNSF, Amtrak, Metrolink
2011 - “San Bernardino Railroad Days 2”-excursion-BNSF, Amtrak, Metrolink
2011 - National Train Day display, LA Union Passenger Terminal – Amtrak
2011 – Amtrak 40th Anniversary, LA Union Passenger Terminal – Amtrak
2012 - “San Bernardino Railroad Days 3”-excursion-BNSF, Amtrak, Metrolink
2012 - National Train Day display, LA Union Passenger Terminal – Amtrak
2012 - "Grand Canyon Limited", Central Coast Railway Club, NRHS, BNSF,
               Amtrak, California & Arizona Railroad, Grand Canyon Railroad.
2013 - “San Bernardino Railroad Days 4”-excursion-BNSF, Amtrak, Metrolink
2013 -  National Train Day display, LA Union Passenger Terminal – Amtrak
2013 - Film shoot, Los Angeles, "Mob City"
2014 - “San Bernardino Railroad Days 5”-excursion-BNSF, Amtrak, Metrolink
2015 - “Fullerton Railroad Days” display – BNSF, Amtrak
2016 - "California Passenger Rail Summit" display, LA Union Station
2016 - “Fullerton Railroad Days” display – BNSF, Amtrak




 

Not taking anything away from 3751 as she exists today, but do a little research and you'll find that while the rebuild improved the original design, it did not achieve what Santa Fe designers and mechanical engineers had hoped for.

That may be why it remained pretty much a one-off.

Didn't other engines of the 3751 class receive basically the same rebuild as the 3751 around 1941?  And, wasn't the one off the 3752 that received Franklin rotary cam poppet valve gear in 1948?

Steve

Remember the bridge across the Santa Margarita River the old truss bridge has been replaced so no water stop would be needed until San Diego ie the 3751 can leave Los Angeles with a full tender of water.

Chris



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/27/16 17:34 by Mudrock.

Yes, but the Santa Fe Class 3776 and the 2900's met and exceeded expectations. How about 1500 tons at 90mph?
The 611 couldn't touch them!!

!