Steam & Excursion > Cumbres&Toltec - Antonito or Chama better?

for a "halway" round trip - which is a better run: from/retruing to Chama, or from/returning to Antonito?

If you *must* ride only half the line (I strongly recommend riding all the way through from Chama to Antonito), I'd recommend a Chama round trip. Doubleheaded up the 4% to Windy Point is just awesome. Yes, you'll miss Toltec Gorge, but that actually goes by pretty quickly, while the experience of riding an open car behind two K-36 locos working up the grade is unforgettable.

As the poster below mentioned the ride from Chama up the 4% grade is awesome but its over about noon. The ride from Antonito to Chama is nice in that 50 miles of it is a steady climb of around 1% from Antonito to Cumbres, then you drop down the 4%. If it were me(and I have been there many times),
I would stay in Chama, ride the bus in the morning to Antonito, and ride the train to Chama. Then stay overnight, and chase the train from Chama to Cumbres(about 1.5 hours), and then head on your way. You will then see the spectacular show up the grade. Or take the extra day and ride Chama-Osier-Chama. Riding the whole line one-way or the other is optimum. Don't forget to leave a little time to visit the yard in Chama also. Its open to viewers if you are careful and are not in the way of switching and such. Mid-day would be a good time, or get there real early in the morning and watch them hostle the engine for the train that day. Then 100 miles away is the Durango and Silverton, which used to be connected to the C&TS(Both were Denver and Rio Grande Western). Their trip is equally as scenic and you may see one of the K28's in operation. I beleive 478 is operational now.
Steamingly,
Greg Scholl
http://www.gregschollvideo.com

Thanks. I've actually been in Chama with the family in April 2 years ago on the way to Durnago to ride the D&S. C&T was not in operation at the time. I may go back for the C&T with my fellow train nut 10 year old son.

What Greg said. Stay in Chama and take the morning bus over to Antonito.

And ride the parlour car. The extra money is well worth it.

You don't save any money riding only half the line, and it only takes about 90 minutes longer to do the whole thing.

JAC

So, is there a general preference for westbound out of Antonito over eastbound Chama? You miss the double heading that way, no?

Chama's better all around. More places to stay and good food. Heavier trains are doubleheaded eastbound to Cumbres while westbounds are always a single locomotive. Only thing I don't like about the round trip by train (aside from missing half of the ride) is that the return leg has the parlour car directly behind the locomotive instead of on the rear of the train. One summer I spent a couple of months assigned to drive the buses for the C&TS. The day before I left to go back to AZ I finagled a free ticket on the eastbound's parlour car since they still had space available the day of the trip. Even better, the railroad was still operating only one train daily on weekdays, so the parlour car stayed on the end for the entire trip. Nothing like standing on the rear platform watching the scenery recede.

I prefer riding out of Chama towards Antonito. Much better. I think it is their trip #1, take the bus to Chama and ride the train back. Must do the entire line, well worth it. Private car is a must as well.

Rio Grande Fan
Denver, CO

tomrandall Wrote:
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> So, is there a general preference for westbound
> out of Antonito over eastbound Chama?

My preference (and presumably Greg's as well) was for riding the train out of Antonito. And doubleheaders don't run every day, only when traffic warrants.

JAC

Riding out of Antonito reasons!

(1) You start in the worst scenery on the railroad and it improves as the trip continues

(2) You start in semi-desert and climb the escarpment, and into the alpine, then along the ledges to Osier. You pass whiplash curve, where three levels of track can be seen and ridden over, phantom curve with its stone spires, etc, mud tunnel, and toltec tunnel, toltec gorge, sublette, and more.
You miss all those things just going from Chama-Osier and back.

(3) The climb out of Chama-Cumbres toward Osier is spectacular, but as I said before the Antonito westbound engine works continually for 50 miles but not as hard. From Chama to Cumbres is 1.5 hours of blasting steam upgrade, then the engine drifts downhill to Osier, and to Antonito. If you like good steam sounds, and finishing with great scenery then
Antonito-Chama is the way to go.

(4)Stay in Chama, and end in Chama, which means no bus ride after the train trip. You can get cleaned up and go eat when ready for dinner.

(5) Chama - Osier section is really only about 20 miles of the whole railroad. 14 Chama-Cumbres, and 6 more to Osier. While pretty, its a 40 mile Roundtrip, and its the same 20 repeated on the return trip.

(6)Antonito-Chama 64 miles of the same railroad, and 50 miles of slight upgrade. Dropping down from Cumbres around Windy Point is breathtaking also!

(7) As I said, stay overnight in Chama and watch, or chase the train depart upgrade the next morning to Cumbres, and you will have it all covered.

(8) As John said, not all Chama-Cumbres trains are doubleheaded. This depends on the time of year, and perhaps the day of the week. Weekends in the fall are a good bet for doubleheaders. This also assumes the third engine is always serviceable for helper service.

(9) Whatever you choose it will be a good trip!! Enjoy

Greg
http://www.gregschollvideo.com

The above comments says it all. I would recommend train ride from one end to the other with the bus trip back. Not that much longer and you get to see the whole railroad. If I had to stay overnight in one of the towns, definitely Chama has the upper hand.

I'm with the two Gregs and John Craft. Stay in Chama, where you have a lot more hotels and restaurants, take the morning bus to Antonito and ride back to Chama. More varied scenery and a longer working run are the pluses. As John suggested, chase the next day out of Chama.

The sights and sounds from the road are fantastic, and you can get all the classic locations, Jukes Tree, the Narrows, Lobato Trestle, Lobo Lodge, Cresco Tank, Coxo crossing, Windy Point and Cumbres from the highway. Watch the train as it drifts downgrade around Tanglefoot Curve, past Los Pinos and out of sight. Then head off to Durango.

Trying to railfan the east end of the line by chasing will require a high clearance 4WD and even then, getting ahead of the train for more than 4 shots is a challenge.

Michael Allen

I have done this trip twice. The first time was from Antonito to Chama and the second time was from Chama to Antonito. I would definatley recommend riding the train from Chama and taking the bus back to Chama in the afternoon. The following day, get up early and photograph the early morning preparation and departure then chase the train all the way to the Los Pinos curve. As far as I'm concerned I would not spend extra money for the parlor car, the open car is by far the most exciting way to experiance this trip. This is without a doubt my most favorite vacation destination!

The best ride is certainly from Chama to Osier so you can enjoy the sounds of the 4% grade. Best to carry on the Antonito to see the whole line.
For a detailed review of the Chama to Cumbres Pass section and onwards to Los Pinos, see our new DVD on the subject at http://www.svsfilm.co.uk

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Also, if you do plan to chase the train take care to stay close to the speed limit. Mountain roads are unforgiving of excess speed as are the New Mexico State Police. During the summer that I was driving the bus there, I did see them out on 17 watching the railfans closely-they were following the train to keep the railfans in check with a couple of units. At the time I saw them doing this, it was only a couple of weeks after they had done a body recovery on 17 due to a vehicle leaving the roadway. Oddly that wreck didn't occur on the dead man's curve below Windy Point.

I've been visiting the line since 1960, rode the line many times, and next Sunday I'm catching the bus from Chama to Antonito and riding the parlor car from Antonito to Chama. In an earlier post Greg Scholl pretty much summed up why many of us think that's the best trip. The struggle up the 4 percent going the other way is dramatic, but if you don't want to ride both ways you can experience that very easily following the train in your car the next morning. Two other comments. One,regarding doubleheaders, while they are neat, the fact is most doubleheaders are overpowered (becasue they are only one or two cars over the limit for one engine) and single engine trains are much more likely to be really working HARD. Finally, I agree with the comment that the open gon is a good alternative to the parlor car, and cheaper. I'm riding the parlor car mainly because I paid the money for a parlor car annual pass just to support the railroad...do that every year whether I ride or not.

John West

Thanks to everyone for their insight!