Canadian Railroads > Renaissance Trains off Montreal-Quebec Route

As has been rumoured for the past month, VIA has replaced the Renaissance trains on the Montreal-Quebec City route with LRC equipment.

Many railfans of the "anti-Renaissance brigade" will welcome this, but they should be careful what they wish for. The LRC cars have major structural issues that were discovered by IRSI in Moncton when the first 10 or so were rebuilt. In addition to the cosmetic improvements to the interiors and a new exterior paint scheme, it was intended to replace the HVAC and electrical systems and rebuilt the washrooms. But when the floor-boards were taken up the structural problems were seen. IRSI went bankrupt and now the vast majority of the fleet is running as it has been with no rebuilding on the horizon. The VIA 1 cars are gradually being refurbished as Business Class cars with a very attractive "2+1" interior, but according to one report they are not being rebuilt as such. I don't know where that work is being done - perhaps by VIA in its Montreal Maintenance Centre. Does anyone know?

With the Ren. corridor trains out of service, the rest of the corridor fleet is being stretched. I have already noticed that some trains that used to have four LRC cars now have three. Many trains that were not normally sold out on a week-day are now showing as sold out - including, surprisingly, a Toronto-Windsor week-day train this week. One day this week the departure board at Toronto Union showed three trains as: "Economy sold out, Business Class available".

VIA Rail may not put any effort into an Ocean reroute so as to get REN cars, and place in the corridor to backfill.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/07/14 06:32 by joemvcnj.

I wonder what the "major structural" issues actually are as mentioned by the original poster. Curious if it is safety concern. Doug

It ought to come as no surprise that railcars might wear out after, say, thirty or forty years of hard use. The term is "life cycle planning"

Even Amtrak has a plan to replace the Superliner fleet, which are roughly the same age as the LRC's.

The failure to appreciate the LRC fleet might have a finite life and have to be replaced some day, and appropriate provision made for capital funding, is part of the whole grudging attitude that Ottawa has had for passenger rail - regardless of the party in power.

I do think we have a right to say "we Told You So" about the wisdom of buying those Ren cars in the first place.

I guess we'd better not point out how those old Budd built cars are holding up.....someone might suggest replacing the LRC's with Manor and Chateau cars, rebuilt to coaches.

- Paul

ACR has 2 or 3 ex-Clocker cars freeing up.

joemvcnj Wrote:
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> VIA Rail may not put any effort into an Ocean
> reroute so as to get REN cars, and place in the
> corridor to backfill.


VIA's intention is to retire the Ren cars, not use them for backfill. The maintenance cost of the Ren cars is prohibitive. As of this week the Ren coaches seem to be gone from Montreal - Ottawa trains.

KG



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/07/14 07:29 by kgmontreal.

Regarding the many retrofits of the Via Renaisance cars.

I have to wonder if this comes from the origin of these cars in the UK.

They come from a long established builder, Metropolitan Cammell of Birmingham , England, the builder of most London Underground subway cars and a big part of the British Railways passenger car fleet.

The "Nightstar" trains were to be hotel trains operating between London and major European centres through the Channel tunnel.

During their development, European airlines deregulated causing fares to plummet and many discount airlines to start up.

The target market for "Nightstar", business travellers chose air travel over luxury train travel.

The "Nightstar" cars never turned a wheel in revenue service in Europe. However, as their owners became aware of the changing market, many changes were made to the interior layout. By European standards, they became very heavy.

The "Nightstar" trains became a political and business embarrassment, and were hidden from public view in secure storage on Army bases. As such, they may not have had the thorough testing and examination which other railcar designs go through during early in service years.

I can imagine the collective sigh of relief in various boardrooms when a purchaser overseas was found to take the "Nightstar" cars off their hands.

Throughout this history of British railway construction, there have been occasional trains and concepts that have been expensive failures. "Nightstar" came a decade or so after the "Advanced Passenger Train" (a high speed tilting body train) was cancelled after a very brief service life.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/07/14 10:36 by eminence_grise.

Sounds like VIA needs a brand new car fleet for Quebec-Ontario corridor services, or maybe an AAF type solution.

Did this area ever really advance much over what CN was doing in the sixties? I guess the LRC's may have increased speeds a bit, but when was the peak train volume for these corridors?

For what had to be done with those "renash*t" cars. We shouldn't've paid what we paid for them. 10 grand vs. 100 grand plus.



Brian H.

The exact nature of the structural problems with the ageing LRC cars has not been explained anywhere that I have seen or heard. This is just one article on the subject:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/industrial-rail-slaps-via-rail-with-2-lawsuits-1.1208438

From I have heard and read IRSI wanted more money from VIA when they discovered these problems. VIA took the attitude that IRSI was just trying to get more money from VIA and cancelled the contract. It was reported that this disagreement was responsible for the bankruptcy of IRSI.

The Nightstock/Renaissance cars were not a new design; they are essentially Mk 3 carriages which have been around for a long time. The interiors are quite different from anything running in Britain, especially the sleepers with private toilets in all rooms and showers in six rooms per sleeper. VIA was mandated to make accessibility improvements to the coaches and sleepers. One coach per train has a large washroom with curved sliding door (similar to what I have seen on many British carriages, such as East Coast and Virgin Trains). A very large accessible compartment was created in one sleeper per consist - basically by removing the wall between rooms 9&10 and creating a new entrance and washroom facilities.

What a shame that after all the money and effort spent on these trains they are being side-lined. The Ren. is till used on the tri-weekly Ocean, but the future of that train is in doubt. Strangely, as of now VIA is not selling the Park car's suite and drawing room during the "Sleeper Plus" season. Those rooms were not sold over the Christmas season when the Sleeper Plus service was offered. This is a wasted opportunity. My wife and I have taken the drawing room recently and I have friends who always travel in the suite. Those accommodations are never discounted, so they cannot be booked with a VIA Preference coupon. It's full fare only with those.

eminence_grise Wrote:
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>
>
> I can imagine the collective sigh of relief in
> various boardrooms when a purchaser overseas was
> found to take the "Nightstar" cars off their
> hands.
>

... and while we are at it, let's sell them some of our Submarines ...

Rick

Why was it decided to sideline or retire the Renaissance cars (so young) on the corridor? This is about the only thing I see VIA continuing in the future - the Eastern Corridor service between Quebec-Montreal/Ottawa-Toronto and Windsor. Actually VIA may have enough Budd coaches (extras from the Canadian) and LRC coaches to run the corridor without the Renaissance cars. Or maybe they should get some of the RDC's in service on the corridor. I know the Renaissance cars are liked by some and not liked by others, but with all the amount of money VIA spent on retrofitting these cars - from ADA to winterization - I really don't follow it.

And the Renaissance cars could never be operated in the US - they'd never pass FRA standards. Thus these cars are becoming worthless sidelined (e.g. they couldn't be sold to Amtrak - even though Amtrak doesn't have the money to buy such equipment).

Regarding the LRC's, I was on the old LRC's - in what was then VIA 1 class - and I actually found the LRC's to be a little cramped when all considered.

As for the Ocean - hopefully it can be "saved" or re-routed. For those who don't want to fly or drive, it's either the bus or train.

Can't believe Canadian passenger rail is coming to this.

I cannot help but wonder if CAF is preparing a proposal to pitch Viewliner-esque cars to VIA. I know I would be if I was in charge of CAF.

PM Harper's agenda would not let VIA buy a Walthers train set.

joemvcnj Wrote:
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> PM Harper's agenda would not let VIA buy a
> Walthers train set.

Seems like something Ontario and Quebec ought to get together on, but I know that is not going to happen, either. However if All Aboard Florida proves to be a new model for developing passenger corridors, this region might have some potential for such a solution, in my opinion.

Wow VIA is really a bigger mess than Amtrak how the hell did that happen? Wait don't answer, I pay attention to the news and see CBC plenty enough to know the politicians on that side of the border from all parties are just as messed up as the ones on this side of the border.

I feel for the VIA personnel I rode from Windsor to Montreal 16 months ago. They were all very pleasant and polite it must be horrible watching the powers to be ruin your jobs future. I was in LRC's from Windsor to Toronto and Ren. from Toronto to Montreal same cars heading back as well.

Now I was in business class but I did not notice the big deal about the Ren cars. I'm not a skinny dude and have knee's without cartilage behind either cap and a pinched nerve in my lower back. Riding on both cars were comfortable to me and I did not notice any difference in the way body reacted after each trip (I had a night layover between trains). Now if I ride in my Crown Vic's passenger seat for any amount of time over 20 min I will start to feel it.

Granted I still can't believe VIA purchased the cars, but after riding on them I thought they rode well enough. What did amaze me is the amount of people who dislike the cars but have never been in them.

Just my take.

Kris

dcmkris Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wow VIA is really a bigger mess than Amtrak how
> the hell did that happen? Wait don't answer, I
> pay attention to the news and see CBC plenty
> enough to know the politicians on that side of the
> border from all parties are just as messed up as
> the ones on this side of the border.

Maybe someone from Canada can correct me, but I'm under the impression that VIA's loss per passenger is greater than Amtrak. It's hard to find comparable numbers, so I might well be wrong. I'd give more chance of saving Amtrak than I would for VIA.