Railroaders' Nostalgia > Booze?

In the tread below, "Those damned steam hoses..." - http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/posting.php?18,edit,3681746 - Norm told a great story that spoke a lot about drinking on the job. I got hooked immediately, because I realize that I have a better understanding about alcohol use on the RRs before World War I (an ongoing research topic of mine) than I do about the extent of it during my tenure with SP in the 70's and 80's. My powers of observation must have been poor.

The thread has generated some good discussion, but I judge that boozing on the RR deserves a readily-identifiable thread of its own.

In pre-WWI days, the argument was often put-forth that, while nobody knew for sure, railroaders drank less than the general population, because rails embraced the safety-sensitive nature of their jobs. Was this true in the 70's and 80's, based on your experiences *BEFORE* mandatory D&A testing?

Otherwise, how did your company address alcohol, other than by firing people? Did officers regard themselves as exempt?

Again, any thoughts that you have upon the subject would be welcome. Even "Go to Hell" is a good response, if the subject bothers you (Why? I naively ask.)


...And then there was the famous Scotty Hunt episode: He got drunk, stole SP's San Jose depot goat and headed east, only to ram a caboose near Lick. AND the Board put him back to work...

EO
RYE, Evan!

With Booze, it just was there and you would stop and have a pop on the way home that helped you relax and sleep. Some guys would get out of hand and the crew would cover up for them. There were a lot of conductors and brakemen that made good hogheads while the engineer sacked out on the left hand side.

There were a lot of officers that drank and they would be at work. One very good example was the "PE" contract in LA. The General Chairman of the BLE, Howard Smith and Loni Fox from Labor Relations, got together to hash out a new agreement. This was between the SP and the people still working left over from the Pacific Electric. It was more than a 3 martini lunch. The hogheads were paid 100 miles for every move they made. They would deadhead a man to an outside job and pay him 100 miles. He would work the job and be paid 100 miles and then deadhead in and another 100 miles. They would get 3 days pay for one shift where the SP guys were paid 100 miles for a one day shift including the deadheads out and back. I am sure there are other old heads that can give a better insight and example to what went on.

No, after working 16 hours, you needed a little bump so you could get to sleep and be ready for another 16 in 6 1/2 hours, sometimes less, time off.

I think Ricky Gates back east got the drug testing going. He was the one that rolled out of a siding, into the side of a moving Atk train. We had one guy that was on heroin and skated by the testing for over 15 years. He tested positive after a derailment and then ODd before the investigation. Had another that was fired for a positive THC and he was fired. He got back after a year and transferred off the division. He was busted a year later at work with a 0.10 & positive THC.

But you know, a lot of these "tests" were bogus. A crew derailed and had to go pee. Well the conductor knew his brakeman was dirty so he peed in both bottles. (before all the rules) Well, everyone knew about this but questions came up when the Conductor came back clean and the brakeman came back dirty with the same sample?

I started to get signed, undated lab requests from my doctor that I carried in my grip. A lot of others did too. We had a woman hogger who an official wanted to fire. He hated her. Well, one night she derailed going up a steep grade at about 10 mph. No real damage but this officer wanted them tested right now so off they went. Well, when it came time to pee, she went in and took a lab requests with her, not telling anyone but the nurse. She pee'd for the SP and also for herself. Well, wouldn't you know it. Her test came back positive for alcohol. As a matter of fact, her count was way over 0.10 that she had to have been dead drunk when the accident happened. She had only been on duty for 3 hours. They yanked her out of service and she sat at home for quite awhile. Over a month later, they held the investigation. The carrier officer, introduced the positive lab test. Then her local chairman took the floor. He asked the presiding officer why did she have a lab test from the same time and date that showed 0.00. There was a pause, hurried phone calls and it was over. She was paid for all lost time but nothing happened to the officer.

I died at a station way out of nowhere one night and the dispatcher stopped a train so we could dead head in. Well we were in the last unit, looking back on the mty portable patio train cranking along at 60 mph. Well the conductor and head and rear brakeman lit up a joint. I passed, because smoking dope just wasn't my thing. Well, we were heading into a 30 mph curve and these 3 guys were getting nervous. They kept saying we were going too fast. I turned on the headlight and you could see the train bouncing along as usual and the speed was just fine from where we were. Well, they were really getting bothered when the hogger finally put some air under them and we went around the point at 32 mph. With the brakes released and he was back pulling them up to speed.

That stuff had really got to them.

No, it used to be booze and had turned to drugs. Where it is now is anyones guess. With the random testing I think positives have been getting lower and lower. I am sure the FRA, DOT and others involved would have the correct numbers.

As one old hogger used to say to his doctor, when asked if he drank. His reply was sure, "Only alone or with somebody."


Nudge

>There were a lot of officers that drank and they would be at work. One very good example was the "PE" contract in LA -- snip-- They would get 3 days pay for one shift where the SP guys were paid 100 miles for a one day shift including the deadheads out and back. I am sure there are other old heads that can give a better insight and example to what went on.

While I'm not familiar with the protected PE contract details, what you describe was called a "one day stand" on the [SP] Western Division. It applied to outside jobs, "outside" meaning jobs which went on duty beyond an agreed upon distance from the crew calling office at WO Roundhouse When an engineer laid off or went on vacation on an outside local (jobs with the train crew consisting of brakemen, such as the Pittsburg local at Ozol and all the jobs which switched the GM plant at Warm Springs), the extra engineer called from WO to cover the job received a 100 mile deadhead out, was there for the duration of the vacancy, be it four weeks or one day, and then received a 100 mile DH back [to WO]. On an outside switch engine (train crew are switchmen, like the switching jobs at Ozol), what transpired depended on how far away from WO: at Ozol (less than 30 miles) there would be a different extra engineer called for each day of the vacancy. The first [extra] engineer received a 30 mile DH out, and the last one got a 30 mile DH back. For the switch engine at Suisun (over 45 miles), it was the same as for an outside local (100 DH out, there for the duration, 100 mile DH back).

Further complicating the situation was the rotator board. This was a separate listing of extra board engineers, also run on a FIFO/rested basis, which determined who would be assigned to an outside job vacancy. If there was no one rested on the rotator board, then the first-out engineer on the extra [working] board was called. Then if the first-out engineer on the rotator board became rested while the vacancy still existed, he was sent out to relieve the extra engineer who had been called off the working board. This board went away by 1980, and I don't recall how deadhead payments worked, although it could have been that one engineer got the DH out and the other got the DH back.

>I think Ricky Gates back east got the drug testing going. He was the one that rolled out of a siding, into the side of a moving Atk train.

The situation with the 1-1984 Amtrak/Conrail wreck at Gunpow (the Gunpowder river bridge) was 4 MT decreasing to 2 MT to cross the bridge The PRR had installed "go to hell tracks", which consisted of the two outer MTs dead-ending in piles of dirt, with crossovers between the outer MTs and inner two. The PRRs idea was that if a train on an outer track overran a signal, no matter the reason, it would run into to the pile of dirt rather than enter the inner MT and run afoul of another train. Amtrak took out the crossovers in favor of simple turnouts, which I suspect was a money-driven move to lessen maintenance costs for the "extra" switches and associated signal apparatus, but in the long run, the PRR was right.

The accident which precipitated random drug testing was another Amtrak wreck four years (1-1988) at Nekoken, DE, in which a tower operator sent an Amtrak train through a block occupied by a ballast regulator. The Amtrak train struck the regulator, derailed, and went down the embankment at 90 mph. The operator tested positive for drugs (there were no fatalities).

By the time I started on SFE in the '70s it was drugs, mostly smoking dope. There were switchmen that drank (one named Pappy Way liked some rotgut called Old Cabin Still). When Santa Fe had the Richmond Belt the jobs went to work at 4P but the lists did not come out till 6P. The switchmen would smoke in their cars until 6. No one got busted and the guys actually functioned well. Different century I guess. Pappy didn't live very long after he retired so maybe Old Cabin Still was more fatal than pot...

Well, wouldn't you know that the first respondent would be an SP guy. Thanks, Sellar.

I suspect that a lot of guys are reluctant to talk about alcohol and pot use in the pre Rickey Gates days (that's how we now define the old days, not pre Nekoken) either out of embarrassment, or defense of their craft or job category. I spent time in a couple of BLE officer jobs, and I am certainly proud of the craft and want to do it no damage. But, I judge that the worst damage that we can do is not talk about it, since many of the same conditions that led us to drink back in those days still prevail today.

To suppress the fact that the "railroad life" led many of us to the bottle & etc. in the first place is, to me, to deny that harsh conditions existed, and continue to exist. Drinking was a very human response to what in fact was a 19th Century industrial lifestyle and mentality (little changed today, I'd opine). Dedication and safety responsibilities are sometimes just not enough to combat fatigue, anxiety, boredom, broken family life, harassment by idiots in suits and all of the rest that comes with what can be a miserable job for employees and managers alike, particularly junior ones. This is not an excuse, just a simple reality. The larger reality is that while drinking is mostly a thing of RRs' past, many of the fostering conditions still remain and prompt some present-day railroaders to resort to undetectable drugs, or other more-traditional forms of self-destructive behavior. Sure, there now are joint union-management programs like Red Block and exploration of rest issues, but unless things have radically changed in the last few years since I retired, the industry would be thrilled to end such inconveniences to its authority, and government judges PTC as a cure-all.

EO

The comment on the PE engineer's agreement is not correct.
The SP train and engine crews were paid a 100 mile deadhead to an outside point, the earnings of that job while they worked it, and 100 miles back at the end of the vacancy. If an extra SP engineer laid off at the outside point, the second engineer didn't get a deadhead out, or back if he/she was not the last engineer to work the job before the vacancy ended.

The PE engineers all worked a five day week, and if their extra board was exhausted, the oldest rested regular man was used off his assignment. If he did not become rested for his assignment, he was paid the earnings of it.
The senior PE engineers all held night jobs, with the junior men holding day jobs. To start the cycle, the senior men had to take a call for overtime during the day on Sunday, that way they were not rested for their job early Monday morning or Sunday night. That caused the junior man holding a day job to be called for the night vacancy, and his day job to be vacant for the senior man who had worked OT on Sunday daylight.

All week the senior men worked the junior men's daylight vacancies, while the juniors worked the night vacancies. They were paid their job's earnings, plus the earnings of the job they worked, plus the deadhead distance between the assignments and the time. A deadhead from Colton to Torrance paid about 60 miles and 2 1/2 hours.
In a week, a PE engineer would be paid 12 hours of time and a half on Sunday off his assignment, then eight hours straight and four over for the job he worked, plus the entire earnings of his regular assignment, and the deadhead between yards, for five days!

Boy, to think that I was thrilled with a $1618/mo. X-board guarantee...
EO

Anyone who worked in Watsonville/Salinas in the 70s knows that alcohol and pot use was pretty commonplace. One of the most enjoyable jobs I held in my career was the Hollister Local during the summer of '74. After finishing our work in Hollister, on the way out of town, the standard move was to stop clear of the Highway 25 crossing and go across the road to a liquor store and buy a six pack. The contents would then be consumed as we trundled down the branch toward Carnadero at 20 mph (give or take, depending on whether we were going for a quit or overtime). I'm sure a doobie was also passed around the caboose from time to time, but being on the engine, I can only assume.

Working the day Salinas locals presented more opportunities. There was a lot of spot time, which often included lunch at the Victory cafe, an outstanding Mexican restaurant. Having a beer (or two or three) with lunch was not uncommon unless officials were present. Of course, they were having their own three martini lunch. The evening jobs were mostly short hour jobs, so everyone got the work done, signed out, then did their imbibing.

Those were fun times. We were all young guys who didn't know any better, and I guess we were lucky no one ever got hurt.

Around 1980 or whenever the breathalyzer devices were brought into use on the SP, my boss, E. R. Anderson, brought one of those new machines into our office at San Jose one morning. He had borrowed it from the Operating Dept. so we could see just what the General Office was about to put into service, at least on the Western Division. As best I recall these things were put out for “friendly” experimentation for perhaps 1 week so that employees could test themselves and realize that if they were under any influence of alcohol on the job they were going to soon be caught.

Ed’s co-worker, Burt L, took only a liquid lunch every day. Looking back, I think the whole purpose of bringing in the breathalyzer was to test Burt after lunch to show him he was not fooling anyone. But if so it did not work since a year later Burt was suspended without pay and brought back only after he had completed the dry out program at his own expense.

I was never much of a drinker at any time and had probably not had a drink in a month that morning. But I (probably like others) doubted the machines were fool-proof and decided to try and fool the machine into giving a false positive. I had a tiny bottle of concentrated Listerine which had some alcohol content. I took a good swig (not swallowing lest it quickly come back up) and then blew into the device. It was not fooled.

On the many occasions I came up into a locomotive cab following an accident and spoke with the crew I never once smelled or even had reason to suspect any use of alcohol. But in many times my reason for being there had been because of alcohol or drug use by a trespasser or motorist. The coroner’s blood tests were indisputable.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/15 19:49 by Westbound.

When I started at the SP in 19-ought-69, most industries -not just the RRs- tolerated booze unless it got out of hand, meaning someone being habitually drunk while on the job. Many industries we switched passed out quarts annually as Holiday Cheer, which is how I learned to like Scotch and hate bourbon. But the US bluenose cycle has gotten to the point of excessive prudery these days. A similar bluenose cycle also occurred the Civil War, right after which per capita US booze consumption reached its historical all-time maximum, to the temperance movement of the 1890s-early 1920s, which culminated in prohibition (and set the mafia up in permanent business and made Eliot Ness a household name).

I forgot about the "Breathalyzer". I was going on duty in Wat. Jct. for SLO and the carryall driver told us we were the guinea pigs. Well, we got to the yard office, Babers Jr.the Trainmaster was there, also Meyers from Oakland, Assistant Superintendent for the Western Div.out of Oakland.

It was a farce from the word go. They explained that we didn't have to take it but if we didn't, we would have to get home on our own. It was winter and the Conductor, Scotty Kizia and I were the only ones from SLO. The head and rear brakemen were apple-knockers and lived around Wat. Jct. Well, they chose to "stay home" but the two of us took the test. They told us that we would be taken in, one at a time so it would be private. We both told Babers and Meyer's we were not little children and just get it done. We passed, and while we were waiting for the new brakemen, I had time to try to get some answers from these two officers. I asked them both if they had taken the test? Answered No. Had they checked anyone else, like operators, carryall drivers ? Answered, No. I asked them if they thought that was fare not to get tested? Refused to comment. I asked Meyer's if he and Charlie would, while we stood there ? They again said no. I asked why not? Meyers went into Charlie's office without answering the question. Charlie refused to answer and found something else to do.

Now that to me was BS. There are a lot of people out there that can have an effect on trains. It doesn't have to be operating people on a train, itself. One carry-all driver could wipe out 5 or 6 lives in one swipe. Dispatchers, operators, the list goes on. These two officers took it upon themselves to single out operating train & engine crews. They could have at least shown some sort of leadership and be tested. No, not these two. And a lot of other officers followed by refusing the test.

At any rate, this was declared a major agreement violation. The BLE was given permission to strike over this (which was a major ruling back then, even today) and the carrier stopped using the machines. I think this was done around the holidays and the carrier knew we would have a hard time getting it stopped. Why and how they did this was one of the reasons for the quick decision from the board.

Sorry, but officers and other departments are not any different than us.



Nudge

The reason why they refused is quite clear, they both would blow over 1.0 and they would have to take themselves out of service. Good example to lead by

I've never worked as a rail, but have had several friends with railroad careers. Back in the '70s, there were a number of occasions where I rode around with the crew and was given the opportunity to run the engine quite a few times. I can recall at least two occasions when I was running an engine and someone on the crew handed me a beer.

WB

It seems to me now that folks don't do the stuff at work. I'm not saying that we don't have folks that have turned up after having smoked at home. We had a switchman pass out in his car last summer with a needle still in his arm at work. Drug and alcohol abuse is probably less than the rest of the world. I do know guys who run their trains to make last call at the afht. Others rush towards the house for the same reason. I can't say that i've never went drinking after work. I can say I never drank before work or during work. Times certainly have changed. When there were 5 guys on a train, a couple of guys could certainly have had a fun time at work and still have some designated drivers. Now, it's my conductor and myself. And most of our conductors don't have a lot of experience.

Joe

Back in the early 70's on a railroad up in Maine I had a bunch of friends who worked for the railroad. I'd often ride with them to the away from home terminal, lay over with them, then return back to the home terminal. There was an unmanned station about halfway through one particular branch where they had to pick up waybills (actual paper). Normal procedure was for the headend brakeman to hop off the engine, grab the waybills, then catch the buggy on the way by. Right next to the station was a small store. When I was riding with them I would jump off, grab the waybills, run to the store for a 6-pack, then catch the buggy on the way by. Train would have to slow down to give me time to gather the bills and booze. Once at the away from home terminal they were off duty for over 24 hours before they had to go back to their home terminal. Crew put off and walked over to the bar, then hours later would head for the bunkhouse. I would wander off to the buggy and crash there overnight and keep the stove going in the winter time. Was a great pickup line in the bars trying to entice women to accompany me back to the caboose for a drink and whatever. Was always fun to hole up in the buggy during winter storms..all nice and warm.

That branch is gone now, turned into a walking, hiking, snowmobile, atv trail for the most part. All but two of the guys I hung out with have now passed, and the other two are retired.

Here's a few pictures of what is left of the branch.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/15 21:38 by RS11.

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The 1988 Amtrak wreck sounds like the Train 66 wreck in Chester PA. The tower was in Marcus Hook PA.

Totally different today then "back when". In the sixties and into the seventies I rode with local crews ALOT. Particularly in the sixties there was ALOT of drinking going on, even parties in the caboose attended by local bar regulars of which some of the crew were. One day arrived for a ride to find the conductor running the engine while the engineer was passed out in the caboose. Another day while talking to the engineer from the ground a cut of cars rolled into the side of the engine, his reaction was to burst out in laughter. There was still quite a bit going on when I hired out in seventy eight but most stopped when random testing started. One legendary conductor on a roadswitcher in Fullerton, CA that the company was trying to get was actually able to go twelve hours without relieving himself before they gave up!
JB

Booze certainly existed with SP personnel from the
San Francisco General Office. Joe Willis who was
General Superintendent-Transportation had lunch everyday
at either the Commercial Club or the Transportation Club
which consisted of vodka martinis. We never made a point to
see him in the afternoon as the vodka caused a very nasty
disposition. Two blocks from the office was the Seven Hills
restaurant. This was a SP hangout and a noon the bar, lounge
and dining area consisted of SP people from just about every
department. With all the cocktails not much was accomplished afternoons.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/15 17:30 by goldcoast.

Yes it was very prevalent on the SP! I remember as a dispatcher in 1971-1972 we had some "old heads" that seemed to have to go to the bathroom quite often when it got busy in the office at 6th and Main in Los Angeles. I discovered later, by chance, a nice hiding place in the tile wall where, if you carefully removed some tiles, you would find a nice fifth of bourbon. Being kind of the "new kid on the block" I never said anything. While it was definitely something I didn't recommend or participate in at the time, it sure did help those "old heads" dispatch a lot better!

Then there was the time as a brand new Assistant Trainmaster in 1974 I was sent to Baldwin Park to accomplish an "audit" on the 3-4 road switchers that went on duty there. This was an old PE bastion and the first crew I rode with operated the Azusa switcher. A really nice man, Conductor Bob Coe, seemed like he knew what he was doing. We arrived at the Miller Brewing Company in Azusa and everyone bailed off the engine and caboose for "beans". I told them I'd stay on the engine. About an hour later they all came back with their arms full of six packs, small kegs and stray bottles. They filled up the area of the water dispense where ice went with bottles and cans. The kegs went into the caboose. Suddenly it was like we were a beer express! I didn't know what to say, so I finally got enough courage to say, "What are you doing? You know that's against the rules!" The crew replied, "Oh, we do this all the time. The Trainmaster knows all about it. Don't worry about it Pete!" I rode in silence on the way back to Baldwin Park, not knowing what to do. I was so green as a young manager I didn't have any idea what to say or do! Upon arriving back at Baldwin Park I called the Trainmaster (MLI) and told him the story. His reply, "Peter, you tell them they can't do that anymore!" I told the crew, they smiled and said they wouldn't do that anymore. Yeah right! I departed Baldwin Park and continued to be "educated" about what went on at other locations on the Los Angeles Division. The joys of being young and naive!!!

When I first hired out with SP, I was a virtual teetotaler conditioned by my father, who was death on alcohol. The SP soon cured me of that. Nevertheless, I never became a heavy drinker until after I left SP and went to work for Amtrak.

My initial experience with Amtrak re booze was pretty bizarre. This was in late 1992, after Amtrak began operating Caltrain. Across the street from the San Jose depot, and next door to the "Butcher Building" - Amtrak's local headquarters named after a previous occupant, not as a characterization of activities within - was a dive named Paddy's, owned by Dave DiSalvo, an ex-buyout SP engineer who had gone to work as a Caltrain conductor for Amtrak. Dave made a ton of money for awhile after Amtrak came to town, for even though it was next door to headquarters central, it became a hangout crowded with rails who had completed their day's run, if not as-yet technically tied up. No, this was not a problem, because on several occasions, some of the officers from next door were bellied up to the bar next to us! One of them (a woman, guys) kept hitting on me by insisting on taking sips out of my glass. Denied! I was quite happily married, in good part due to not having earlier succumbed to away-from-home temptations (do ya remember the pass-around "Lettuce Queens" in Watsonville?).

I was a transplant to the commutes, and had little to do in my off time except hang with fellow rails, since my family continued living near Dunsmuir while we waited to see if the Caltrain gig worked out. I quickly fell-in with a new acquaintance, a staunchly Republican ex-SP engineer who was one of the most naturally hilarious people that I have ever met (his first two initials coincided with those of your former railroad, Mike and JV). He was also a self-admitted alcoholic and a gonzo railfan. When he bid on a Gilroy job 30 miles from home, he over-nighted on the F40's parked in the Gilroy yard, but only on the ones sitting next to the main tracks. He wanted to watch / listen to the freight trains go by. Also accounting for this was that he was a notorious skin-flint, except when it came to buying rounds of drinks. I called him the Republican for his staunchly conservative beliefs.

The Republican and I-the-rabid-Democrat got along famously, at one time engaging in a pseudo-political debate over the radio late one Friday afternoon when Superintendent Don Saunders happened to be listening. I'm still bitter about the disparity in the discipline that Don meted-out. The Republican had a letter placed in his personal record (something like getting demerits elsewhere), whereas I only got a warning. I to-this-day believe that I got less because our griever, Kenny McCulloch, and Don secretly and rightfully agreed that I deserved the lesser after concluding that the Republican's radio quips were way funnier than mine. Anyway, we continued our ongoing political sparring off the air like a couple of giggly school girls and wound-up spending more and more time lubricating our debates at Paddy's. I recall a couple of instances where we violated the 16 hour law in the place, surviving from late morning till early next on booze (me: Manhattans). For the republican, this was easy, because his diet was mostly liquid - I hardly ever saw him eat, and he looked like a toothpick. Luckily, my apartment was a short walk from the bar. The Republican hated driving cars, preferring to bum rides off of other inebriates.

Despite our habits, we accepted the responsibilities of running trains full of hundreds of people, and religiously followed the rule of "eight hours, bottle-to-throttle" and then some. In our ignorance, we considered this conventional wisdom as adequate protection. It was only later, with the raft of information that came along with the institution of random testing, that we realized that the rule was severely flawed. Not once did I ever go to work with any conscious lingering effects (I never got hangovers, though), but based upon what I later learned, I still shiver over the possibility that I indeed may have been mildly impaired upon occasion. Running Peninsula Commute trains is all about maintaining one's absolute attention and wits.

The onset of random drug testing saved our asses (and our passengers'?) in the long run. The Republican and I became more circumspect towards drinking, and Paddy's, the convivial facilitator of our addiction, became a railroad ghost town. The Republican found a new hangout near Santa Clara University then transferred-out a few years later, much to my dismay. I hit a bar with him in his new location only once, and it was apparent that alcohol was beginning to take its toll. That was the last time that I saw him. I was later told that he had been forced into retirement due to an onset of black-out spells. He could not have been much past 50 then. As it turned out, I had not yet made a total turn towards the hard core, and seamlessly returned to having an only-occasional Manhattan, something that continues to this day.

EO