Model Railroading > More dispute over KCS Belle colors.

Well....after CLOSER examination of there (Athearn) Belle SD70ACe...it may be worse than first thought! If you recall, the dispute was over shades of red! NOW, I discover that the gods at Athearn used a very dark shade of green that to MY eyes should be black....like the Intermoutain ES44AC! With the damn price of Ho scale these days you would THINK they could atleast do a better job on the paint schemes!!!! I guess the BIG question is for those around the real thing every day and pay close enough attention to tell us....which is it?

It's apparently NOT black.

"NOW, I discover that the gods at Athearn used a very dark shade of green that to MY eyes should be black....like the Intermoutain ES44AC! With the damn price of Ho scale these days you would THINK they could atleast do a better job on the paint schemes!!!!"

Looks like you probably should send the "gods at Athearn" an apology...

"KANSAS CITY, Mo. - A Kansas City Southern source confirmed to Trains News Wire on Friday that the railroad's new EMD SD70ACe locomotives that are on order will be painted in a variation of the railroad's historic red, yellow, and Brunswick (extremely dark) green passenger-train livery. A version of those colors is worn by KCS's "executive F-unit diesels" and business cars, but freight locomotives are gray with yellow stripes. It is believed that this new scheme will be applied to future KCS locomotives orders, and to existing units as they are shopped, but no confirmation on that point was available Friday.

KCS passenger diesels and cars wore variations of red, yellow, and Brunswick green from the 1940s into the late 1960s (freight units wore red and black, and switchers were all black), when an all-white scheme was adopted for passenger and freight locomotives. Only two E-series passenger diesels were repainted white, and the cars kept their historic colors until KCS quit all passenger service in 1969. Gray replaced white as the basic diesel color beginning in 1989.

KCS's business cars always retained the historic colors, and the F units that KCS boss Mike Haverty brought in to pull the expanded fleet in 1996 were painted to match them (Brunswick green is dominant, vs. yellow on the old E units). When passenger service was re-introduced in 2001 on KCS's newly acquired Panama Canal Railway, the cars and the ex-Amtrak F40's purchased for it were painted in the historic passenger colors, and KCS also applied the livery to an F unit donated in 2006 to the Union Station museum in Kansas City."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/14 11:45 by wheel_slip.

After seeing your photos in the last thread, the Athearn unit looks closer to the prototype than the Intermountain. KCS uses Brunswick Green, the same paint used on the NS Penn Central heritage unit...

I found out from InterMountain that the dark "green" stripe on the KCS Belle ES44AC was painted with Pantone 419 M which is 75% black and 25% green. If you take it out into the sun you will see that the green stripe doesn't match the black of the trucks / underframe.

Lee Ryan - Rio Grande Fan
Denver, CO

As I said before, take it outside and photograph both units there side-by-side. IMHO the Athearn is WAY OFF, and the RED is the more important of the two colors in question.

Credit DSC for this image.

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For many years, long before internet pictures, I always thought the SP&S Alcos were black with that yellow in the Broadstripe scheme. It turned out that too was some sort of Brunswick green and the manufacturers are (at least) getting the paint correct. They are to be thanked for that.

Similarly, here in Australia, the old Hamersley Iron scheme always looked black when I saw it in pictures. It turns out that it was a dark green as well.

Grinstein Green was another deceiving colour as was the cream included with it. When I saw an OMI model of the BN SD70ACe's I was surprised to see the colours. In the early days, I thought the colours were a Royal Blue with White from looking at photos.

The moral of the story is to trust the reputation of the manufacturer - at least those that have a reputation of getting it right. Unless you have an intimate knowledge of what colour was used don't jump to the wrong conclusion just based on your looking at a photo on-line or even in a magazine.

Rick

Model manufacturers typically get paint information from the original specifications, order letters, correspondence files and/or railroads. They don't get it right 100% of the time, but it *IS* right, most of the time.

Colors and tones simply don't scale, a model manufacturer must tread a line between correct and too (prototypically) light. The correct colors usually show up too dark, and modelers bitch about it. Light and color is a whole 'nother area of interest, but the bottom line is that you can not match a model in typical layout lighting to a Internet photo on a non-professionally tuned and calibrated monitor. It is a fools errand. And, without knowing the filters in use, color photos, slides and videos are also problematic.

Brunswick green, btw, is black with copper salts added - originally used (on railroads) on the *INTERIOR* of boiler jackets pre-1900. The final color varied greatly based on quantity of "pigment" (sic) and environmental factors. the Pennsy (and other roads) used a paint variation of Brunswick Green - that color, termed Dark Green Locomotive Enamel by Pennsy followers is that which most are familiar with - but it is a paint, it is not true Brunswick Green, but a rendition of it made from "real" paint pigments for consistency sake (and to eliminate most of the environmental factors).

And, some paints are well known for environmental affects to them - paints from the immediate post-lead period were well known to fade rapidly. That's been stabilized somewhat, but equipment in the sun, especially in high UV sun, will change "color" rapidly.

I'm not sure why there is an attempt to knock Athearn on this one, they seem to have gotten it more correct than some renditions.

ATSF100WEST Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As I said before, take it outside and photograph
> both units there side-by-side. IMHO the Athearn is
> WAY OFF, and the RED is the more important of the
> two colors in question.
>
> Credit DSC for this image.

But, in the other thread, several images of the SD70ACe showed that Athearn's color for the EMD's matched that of the prototype. Based on photo evidence, it appears there is a strong variation beteeen the shades of paint that GE and EMD used. So, one can't use a picture of a GE to say whether or not the EMD is correct. They SHOULD look different, because the real ones do.

As for the OP's rant ... I really have a hard time taking their opinion seriously. First he ranted about the red. When people suggested it was actually fairly accurate as compared to photos, he then starts a whole new thread to bloviate about the "black" ... which he was previously told (on the first thread) should be a very dark green.

IMHO, it just seems like he is looking for things to yell and scream about. If he isn't happy with the model, there is a simple solution ... return it. There is no need to carry on about it with two threads of ranting.

This whole thread reminds me of when BNSF switched over to orange and black colors with the new "swoosh" logo. Folks here on TO were swearing up and down that it was still green, according to their eyes, even though I had just operated a REAL one and was close enough to verify with 100% accuracy that the paint was in fact black.

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/14 17:44 by bioyans.

If it's Brunswick Green, it should look black. Only in the sunlight can you see the green tint. This is based on my experience with PRR F units (the real thing).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/14 19:00 by wabash2800.

Trainman,

I suggest you give up the HOBBY, because it is stressing you out. This whole dissection of the accuracy of colors on a model is ludicrous and boorish.

Find something that makes you happy and pursue it.

Note that with all things in this universe, there is an opportunity for over analyzation and disappointment, but also one for happiness and fulfillment. It's all about the path you choose to take.

I wish you good luck and happiness.

JB out.

Joel Brazy
Coatesville, PA

Well reds are not the same here

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The reds are not the same? Neither are the yellows, the dark greens or even the silvers. The unit on the right has a lot of grime on it, which darkens the colors.