Passenger Trains > Amtrak 564 runs over red banner

Amtrak 564 enroute to San Diego ran over a red banner between the rails on main track 2 just east of CP College before placing the train into emergency.
The banner had been set up by officials from Amtrak, Metrolink, FRA and the CPUC in a joint testing effort.

What was this exercise supposed to prove, that a train can run over a banner without derailing?

Just as bad as passing a red signal is:

6.27 Movement at Restricted Speed
When required to move at restricted speed, movement must be made at a speed that allows stopping within
half the range of vision short of:
• Train.
• Engine.
• Railroad car.
• Men or equipment fouling the track.
• Stop signal, or
• Derail or switch lined improperly.
When a train or engine is required to move at restricted speed, the crew must keep a lookout for broken rail
and not exceed 20 MPH.
Comply with these requirements until the leading wheels reach a point where movement at restricted speed
is no longer required.

Gotta love efficiency testing...

Jaap Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just as bad as passing a red signal is:
>
> 6.27 Movement at Restricted Speed
> When required to move at restricted speed,
> movement must be made at a speed that allows
> stopping within
> half the range of vision short of:
> • Train.
> • Engine.
> • Railroad car.
> • Men or equipment fouling the track.
> • Stop signal, or
> • Derail or switch lined improperly.
> When a train or engine is required to move at
> restricted speed, the crew must keep a lookout for
> broken rail
> and not exceed 20 MPH.
> Comply with these requirements until the leading
> wheels reach a point where movement at restricted
> speed
> is no longer required.


There is nothing in the original posting saying that a restricting signal had just been passed.

They are only allowed to do banner testing on restrcted signals/speeds.
I doubt FRA would violate their own guidelines.

Some body is going to get a long winter vacation, or terminated......

And given the Rialto crash, you can bet there will be more banner testing.

stone23 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is nothing in the original posting saying
> that a restricting signal had just been passed.


Yeah, not very much detail is up there, but not much is needed... I'm sure there are probbably a few people tying their panties into knots because this thread is here.

The train was flagged by the revious (red) signal by the Dispatcher, creating the condition for restricted speed.

Sounds to me some engineer got caught with his/her pants done. Rules are rules.

Interesting... I was headed the other way on Metrolink this morning, and just after #564 passed us, I heard the Metrolink dispatcher asking the engineer of #564 if he had put the train in emergency and if it was safe to allow trains to pass on the other track. I assumed it was a near-miss grade crossing incident. Wasn't aware they did tests like this. If memory serves me right, today's #564 was one of the "super Surfliner" Thanksgiving trainsets with two locomotives and 8-9 cars.

Speaking of tests... the Metrolink engineer on my ride home must have been new to the route or something, because he had a lot of trouble spotting the train at nearly every station, and also blew past a station he was supposed to stop at. What are the ramifications of missing a scheduled station stop, if any, for the crew? It seems that Amtrak crews sometimes have a hard time remembering the Metrolink stops at Orange and Laguna Niguel, but the conductors are pretty good about reminding the engineer to stop, so they're rarely missed.

Jaanfo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> stone23 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > There is nothing in the original posting saying
> > that a restricting signal had just been passed.
>
>
> Yeah, not very much detail is up there, but not
> much is needed... I'm sure there are probbably a
> few people tying their panties into knots because
> this thread is here.
>
> The train was flagged by the revious (red) signal
> by the Dispatcher, creating the condition for
> restricted speed.

566 was the Super Surfliner. 564 was just a "standard" six car set.

It's a standard test that I would be willing to bet happens every day. It is probably one of the fairest test out there. The engineer screwed up and if the engineer screws up a test like that he/she should get at least a 30 day vacation.... hope he has insurance.
You get talked past a Red signal which automatically puts you at Restriced Speed. then all you have to do is not exceed 20 MPH (which at some times be WAY to fast) and then stop within ONE HALF THE RANGE OF VISION. If you can't see that far then you had better be creeping....

MidLifeCrisis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't see the big deal... the engineer screwed
> up and now gets at least a 30 day vacation....
> hope he has insurance. those kind of tests are
> done all over the place. You get talked past a Red
> signal which automatically puts you at Restriced
> Speed. then all you have to do is not exceed 20
> MPH (which at some times be WAY to fast) and then
> stop within ONE HALF THE RANGE OF VISION. If you
> can't see that far then you had better be
> creeping....

Might be a big deal for the passengers who only care about getting to their destinations on time.

Assuming that the crew of #564 was de-certified on the spot, do they keep a qualified crew at the site to operate the train for the rest of it's journey?

MidLifeCrisis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't see the big deal... the engineer screwed
> up and now gets at least a 30 day vacation....
> hope he has insurance. those kind of tests are
> done all over the place. You get talked past a Red
> signal which automatically puts you at Restriced
> Speed. then all you have to do is not exceed 20
> MPH (which at some times be WAY to fast) and then
> stop within ONE HALF THE RANGE OF VISION. If you
> can't see that far then you had better be
> creeping....


It is a big deal. It is a decertifiable event. You can't have very many of those and still have a railroad career.

HH

krapplem Wrote:

> Might be a big deal for the passengers who only
> care about getting to their destinations on time.

==========================

Would those passengers care about death or injury?

It would be a much bigger deal had the cause of the red signal been a real obstruction like an errant boxcar, large, heavy debris on the tracks, a broken rail, or a wandering vehicle that was high-centered.

The same crew would have failed those "tests" with some potentially very bad results. That's why such testing is done.

GenePoon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> krapplem Wrote:
>
> > Might be a big deal for the passengers who only
> > care about getting to their destinations on
> time.
>
> ==========================
>
> Would those passengers care about death or
> injury?
>
snip

They would if they understood the gravity of the crew's actions which assumes that the reason they stopped for an extended period of time was explained properly to them which, I would bet, it wasn't.

The point of my comment and question was: Does Amtrak, Metrolink, etc. have a contingency to re-crew the train and get it moving promptly (so as to avoid embarassing questions) or does the train just sit there while a crew is sent in from somewhere?

When a "banner test" is conducted, they do not anticipate any failures so no crews are in place
if and when a violation occurs. Violations of this test are extremely rare and the test is always
done in secret so calling another crew would probably get the word out that a test is in the works.
Usually two operating department officials plus a signal maintainer are involved in these tests.
Noel Weaver

retengr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When a "banner test" is conducted, they do not
> anticipate any failures so no crews are in place
> if and when a violation occurs. Violations of
> this test are extremely rare and the test is
> always
> done in secret so calling another crew would
> probably get the word out that a test is in the
> works.
> Usually two operating department officials plus a
> signal maintainer are involved in these tests.
> Noel Weaver

Thanks.

I wonder what Amtrak's "cover" story to the passengers was?

krapplem Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> retengr Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > When a "banner test" is conducted, they do not
> > anticipate any failures so no crews are in place

Exactly. Train 564 was permitted to be moved into and tied down at Anaheim and passengers transferred to the next Southbound train, 566. A new crew was sourced, vanned to the location, and deadheaded the equipment back to Los Angeles to be in place for its next southbound run. The northbound trip was cancelled entirely and passenger reaccomodated onto train 775.

> I wonder what Amtrak's "cover" story to the
> passengers was?

From Another Forum
-------------------------------------------------

Just wanted to report that on the way to work I was on A564 and ceased at Anaheim Station.

I noticed last night on the way home that there was work done on track 2 at the Cerritos grade crossing.

This morning as the train was approaching the Cerritos X(ing) it slowed which I assume was a speed restriction and then stopped. I observed that CP College was red for us. Then it started to proceed slowly thru the CP then it braked hard right before the State College Bl crossing. Annoucement first said that there was issues with the signal and switch (Which I presume was the switch to UP line) and then finally stated that there was an emergency brake that took place and that they needed to look over the train and asked all passengers to detrain and board Amtrak 566 which arrived shortly on track 1.

Wow. So what happens when they do this to a nearly full or "sold-out" Starlight out in the middle of nowhere?