Passenger Trains > Rumor, re the "new" St. Paul Union Depot

An *uncorroborated* rumor from a "reliable source" at an ARP in the upper Midwest:

At St. Paul Union Depot, being rehabilitated for restoration to use as a passenger station, the
platforms were set three inches too low for DOT's ADA requirements, and will have to be rebuilt,
delaying the eventual Amtrak move there by several months.

No confirmation on this, but the source is unusually well-connected on local RR matters.

Also the FRA has disapproved (or will do so) a reverse move of the Empire Builder into or out of
the new stop at St Paul, due to traffic volume at the Division Street junction just east of there,
where freight trains come downhill from the old Burlington and NP lines to Minneapolis. The
Burlington did this many times a day for a hundred years with every one of their passenger trains.
If this doesn't change, Amtrak will be forced to continue using the CP (former Milwaukee Road)
line. The westbound, following its stop at St Paul, would continue up the Short Line Hill,
through all the hand-throw switches into the Minnesota Commercial Railroad, past the then-abandoned
Midway Station on 10 MPH track, through several more hand-throws, before reaching the BNSF main
tracks at St. Anthony. The Minnesota Commercial, owner of the hand-throws and the 10 MPH track,
won’t allow upgrading to power switches and 30 MPH track because then they would have to install
Positive Train Control.

The eastbound would have to do the reverse.

The switches into and out of St. Paul are going to be hand-throws because nobody wants to pay to
maintain electric switches. It is not the freight railroads' problem, and Amtrak says they
don’t have the money.

Then Amtrak should forget the whole thing.

I understand the historic, aesthetic, and political value of the old St. Paul station, but from a transportation standpoint, isn't the existing Midway station better located and more accessible? I had assumed (wrongly) that the new St. Paul stop would be in addition to the Midway stop, kind of like Richmond (VA) Main Street and Staples Mill. Given that St. Paul will be the one and only stop in the Twin Cities area, I can't see how this move benefits Amtrak or most Amtrak customers.

Only advantages are Amtrak's Twin City location will be in one downtown or the other, not in the sprawl/junk commercial area in between and that CHI-MSP running times for the Builder or future corridor trains will be reduced since St Paul downtown is closer to Chicago than St Paul Midway

But since Minneapolis is a more popular destination than St Paul, downtown St Paul is generally rather dead even during the day, and the transit system does not run much when Amtrak is present, then Amtrak is shooting itself in the foot (again).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/12 09:38 by joemvcnj.

There is discussion about an added stop at one of the Northstar commuter rail stations to serve the western
Twin Cities area; perhaps Fridley or Coon Rapids, but not the station at Target Field in downtown Minneapolis.

Amtrak cannot serve downtown Minneapolis directly because the line it uses bypasses downtown. Using the Northstar
commuter station at Target Field would entail a one-mile reverse move, either in or out. Northstar commuter trains
do it in a timely fashion because they operate push-pull. Possibly the "Minneapolis" stop will be like
Glenview, IL; a suburban, no services station. Fridley is about the same distance from downtown Minneapolis as
Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport. Coon Rapids is even farther.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/12 09:49 by GenePoon.

As usual, FRA bureaucrats who likely have no idea of the impact of their work, are making rules. If it was ANY private industry besides the government, they would figure how to make it work safely, quickly and cheaply.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/12 11:17 by MEKoch.

If the platforms are three inches too low for a wheelchair user to properly and safely board a train, that's a problem that needs to be fixed.

MEKoch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As usual, FRA bureaucrats who likely have no idea
> of the impact of their work, are making rules. If
> it was ANY private industry besides the
> government, they would figure how to make it work
> safely, quickly and cheaply.


The original post in this thread claims that the FRA is citing current train volumes as the rationale for not allowing a reverse movement into and out of St. Paul Union Depot. If this is true, then isn't it likely that BNSF and/or CP and possibly UP would have the same objections to such movements regardless if a private or public passenger rail service was involved.

Additionally, another private entity the Minnesota Commercial, is making use of its line less desirable.

I don't know how much credence to put in the original post, but I don't see this as a private vs. government issue as much as an operational capability issue.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/12 18:04 by RuleG.

GenePoon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Also the FRA has disapproved (or will do so) a
> reverse move of the Empire Builder into or out of
> the new stop at St Paul, due to traffic volume at
> the Division Street junction just east of there,
> where freight trains come downhill from the old
> Burlington and NP lines to Minneapolis.

How is that the FRA is in a position to approve a specific routing for an Amtrak train? Is Amtrak looking for an exemption from an FRA rule?

Dave

I have a hard time believing that that FRA would be involved in forbidding Amtrak from making a back up move.

Trains back up into and out of Chicago Union Station in on the the most complex set of interlockings with commuter trains and Amtrak trains whizzing by.

dispr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Trains back up into and out of Chicago Union
> Station in on the the most complex set of
> interlockings with commuter trains and Amtrak
> trains whizzing by.

Don't forget Ft. Worth, TX (Texas Eagles do this each way thru TWR 55), and Houston where Train #2 does a double reverse to get from the Amtrak Depot to the Beaumont Sub. because they (UP, Amtrak, whoever) don't want to replace a flat crossing at TWR 26 that was there for decades.

The current multi-million $ revamp plans for TWR 55 @ FTW don't appear to remedy this either.

RailNet802, out

Sounds like the situation with No. 2 in Houston is familiar with the situation in the Twin Cities. I hope they get this squared away ASAP!

I have a real hard time believing the measurements were off on that platform. Gosh, Amtrak has people that measure all that stuff and prepare detailed engineering reports. Sounds like the contractor screwed up. Doesn't Boardman have any buddies left at the FRA to straighten the back up move plan?

mp51w Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have a real hard time believing the measurements
> were off on that platform. Gosh, Amtrak has
> people that measure all that stuff and prepare
> detailed engineering reports. Sounds like the
> contractor screwed up. Doesn't Boardman have any
> buddies left at the FRA to straighten the back up
> move plan?

Maybe they could lower the track 3"....or put smaller wheels on the Builder's Superliners :-)

Dave

mp51w Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have a real hard time believing the measurements
> were off on that platform. (snip)

The height, distance from the track, etc should be described in the original plans, as well as the building plans issued to the sub-contractor who actually put in the rebar, poured concrete, etc. It doesn't sound like something that's an after thought.

prr60 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I understand the historic, aesthetic, and
> political value of the old St. Paul station, but
> from a transportation standpoint, isn't the
> existing Midway station better located and more
> accessible? I had assumed (wrongly) that the new
> St. Paul stop would be in addition to the Midway
> stop, kind of like Richmond (VA) Main Street and
> Staples Mill. Given that St. Paul will be the one
> and only stop in the Twin Cities area, I can't see
> how this move benefits Amtrak or most Amtrak
> customers.

Midway Station is a horrible location. If you don't think so, just go there some time and see.

One could hope Amtrak would eventually add a stop in Minneapolis allowing interchange with the Northstar.

I have been on eastbound Capitol and Lake Shore Ltd's in far northwestern Indiana that have backed into a siding to let a freight go by, then move forward.

How come backing into Denver Union Station is OK ? The FRA is full of it.

At least in St Paul, you would be near a decent hotel. OTOH, the Days Inn near Midway station is a dump. The heat can be uncontrollable and the windows are jammed or painted shut.

prr60 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I had assumed (wrongly) that the new
> St. Paul stop would be in addition to the Midway
> stop, kind of like Richmond (VA) Main Street and
> Staples Mill.


Why? The St. Paul station is only 5 miles east of the current Amtrak station. No need for both, though maybe St. Paul and either the Coon Rapids or Findley commuter rail station would be a good combo.


Given that St. Paul will be the one
> and only stop in the Twin Cities area, I can't see
> how this move benefits Amtrak or most Amtrak
> customers.


The vast majority of short haul (day) customers are traveling east from MSP. St. Paul is on the east side of the metro, so moving the station 5 miles east should have almost zero negative impact on that travel, and probably a positive one. Similarly, for those traveling into MSP from the east, the new station would create backtracking for fewer riders than the current one.

Most westbound passengers out of MSP are looking at a very long journey of 1 or 2 nights on the train, so I doubt having to board 5 minutes further east is going to dissuade many (or any) from riding. Also note that the downtowns of Minneapolis and St. Paul are less than 10 miles apart, with 5 freeways from all directions feeding into downtown St. Paul. If visitors wish to go to downtown Minneapolis or the U. of Minn., a light-rail line will run directly to those from the St. Paul station (though most headed that way will opt for a taxi instead.)

If Amtrak would step-up and provide SECURE parking at Midway
this location is the superior stop for Empire Builder in the
Twin Cities. Add Fridley or Coon Rapids for passengers in
the west suburbs.

Saint Paul Union Depot is a very uncoordinated and expensive
project.

People are not going to get off the Empire Builder at 11pm and ride light rail for 10 miles to Minneapolis that stops every half a mile. Between the mis-heighted platform and the 10MPH nonsense, this is turning into poorly executed station project concocted by idealistic planners gawking at an historic station restoration, not any detailed transportation analysis.