Passenger Trains > Amtrak Train 644(14)...Off Route to CYNWYD PA

Amtrak Train 644(14)...To CYNWYD PA???

Yup.

Amtrak Keystone Train 644 from Harrisburg arrived Philadelphia seven minutes late
at 1048am. Its departure was delayed, however.

There was a Mechanical issue: it seems that 644(14) could not operate from the
cab car on the Corridor, so the plan was to take the train past Zoo, west on the
Harrisburg line to 52nd St., stop, then reverse and run via the Pittsburgh Subway
(the former Broadway Limited bypass around 30th St. Station) with the engine leading
to New York. But the Amtrak crew apparently passed the 52nd St. signal without stopping
and continued onto the SEPTA Cynwyd Line, past Wynnefield Ave. Station and Bala Station,
finally stopping at Cynwyd Station, either when they realized they had run out of
railroad or when SEPTA cut the electric power so they wouldn't crash into the bumping
post. Train 644(14) wound up stopping just short of the bumper at Cynwyd.

There are a lot of questions here, not least about an Amtrak crew operating a train
with passengers off-route on a foreign railroad where they were not qualified (didn't it even LOOK
unfamiliar?). Lining the switch to the Cynwyd Line is not an issue; the next train was
to be SEPTA 1071, a scheduled Cynwyd Line train.

Amtrak has set the train status for 644(14) to Service Disruption. However, Train 644(14)
departed Philadelphia at 1127am, 32 minutes late due to the mechanical issue; it departed
Cynwyd for New York, after the unauthorized detour, at 115pm.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/13 14:47 by GenePoon.

---

GenePoon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Amtrak Train 644(14)...To CYNWYD PA???
>
> Yup.
>
> Amtrak Keystone Train 644 from Harrisburg arrived
> Philadelphia seven minutes late
> at 1048am. Its departure was delayed, however.
>
> There was a Mechanical issue: it seems that
> 644(14) could not operate from the
> cab car on the Corridor, so the plan was to take
> the train past Zoo, west on the
> Harrisburg line to 52nd St., stop, then reverse
> and run via the Pittsburgh Subway
> (the former Broadway Limited bypass around 30th
> St. Station) with the engine leading
> to New York. But the Amtrak crew apparently
> passed the 52nd St. signal without stopping
> and continued onto the SEPTA Cynwyd Line, past
> Wynnefield Ave. Station and Bala Station,
> finally stopping at Cynwyd Station, either when
> they realized they had run out of
> railroad or when SEPTA cut the electric power so
> they wouldn't crash into the bumping
> post. Train 644(14) wound up stopping just short
> of the bumper at Cynwyd.
>
> There are a lot of questions here, not least about
> an Amtrak crew operating a train
> with passengers off-route on a foreign railroad
> where they were not qualified (didn't it even LOOK
>
> unfamiliar?). Lining the switch to the Cynwyd
> Line is not an issue; the next train was
> to be SEPTA 1071, a scheduled Cynwyd Line train.
>
> Amtrak has set the train status for 644(14) to
> Service Disruption. However, Train 644(14)
> departed Philadelphia at 1127am, 32 minutes late
> due to the mechanical issue; it departed
> Cynwyd for New York, after the unauthorized
> detour, at 115pm.


WOW !!! they would've have to reverse all the way up the viaduct instead of stopping at the signal at JO at ZOO ... #4 track on the viaduct to Cynwyd is now designated 4 Valley ... #4 track from the viaduct to Woodbine was removed when the Septa Maintenance facility was built ... #4 track to Woodbine now runs under the truss bridge ... Amtrak controls up the viaduct to the east side of the truss bridge where Valley interlocking is located ... Septa controls from the west side of the truss bridge to Cynwyd ... on the east side of the truss bridge there's a high signal on the bridge girder for westward movement protecting the switch which was never removed and a pot signal for reverse movement that still exist even though the switch was removed ... how they got by that signal i don't know ... perhaps the signal at Valley was pulled up for the next Septa local but even so that's where Amtrak territory ends and it's a 1/2 mile past the reverse signal at JO ZOO where they should've stopped ... it's about knowing the PC's which is apparent they had no clue ... it's one thing to pass a signal on your own territory which they are qualified but to travel on unqualified territory especially for a foreign railroad ... that crew will have a lot of SPLAININ to do ... no doubt the crew will pee into the cup, get removed from service and engineer will have to be defrocked of his license ... they'll be off for a least 9 months ...

here's a sat image of the high signal for Valley ... look closely at bridge girder to the right of the track and you'll see the signal

http://binged.it/1dvsJCl

here's the signal they should have stopped at to reverse for the NY-PITT Subway ... the pot signal for #4 track (track on left with wood ties under signal bridge)

http://binged.it/1aWmidA

zoom out and see the how it all connects

future plans are to eliminate the high maintenance speed restricted viaduct and the have the Cynwyd connection on the ground just east of the truss bridge



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/14/13 15:35 by Out_Of_Service.

Did the train depart for NY with the same crew?

That has the potential to be very scary, I'm glad nobody was hurt.

BTW, I mentioned the other day that at least one set of Keystone cab car trains seem to have electric motors run around and lead. It would be interesting to see if the train is this situation is the one that's been bad ordered and used.

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Did the train depart for NY with the same crew?
>
> That has the potential to be very scary, I'm glad
> nobody was hurt.
>
> BTW, I mentioned the other day that at least one
> set of Keystone cab car trains seem to have
> electric motors run around and lead. It would be
> interesting to see if the train is this situation
> is the one that's been bad ordered and used.

with the numerous rules violations that took place i can guarantee you that crew never moved from that spot once Septa and Amtrak dispatchers found out their location ... they would've been pulled immediately on the spot ... hell they had no clue where they were ...

Incredibly...there are PHOTOS of this incident!

Go to (link):

Philadelphia Chapter, NRHS, November 14, 2013



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/15 20:50 by GenePoon.

I don't know if anyone remembers this incident or not, but it wasn't long after the Pennsylvania became Penn Central. Anyway, the Broadway was enroute from Chicago to New York, when the train took a wrong turn somewhere east of Altoona (I think it was Petersburg, Pa, but I can't be sure) and got halfway to Elmira before the engineer figured out he was on the wrong route. Then he had to make a reverse move back to the main line. Naturally, leaving Altoona on time, he didn't arrive in New York until mid-afternoon (Due in at 9am), which made him slightly late returning to Chicago (If he arrived New York around 3, the quickest he could get out would have been around 7)

Another "we didn't notice we were on the wrong railroad" incident:

Once upon a time on a railroad far, far away:

Back in the late 1970s, shortly after inauguration of the North Star
(Amtrak Trains 9-10, St. Paul-Duluth), on its original schedule going north
in the evening, the train left Midway station, passed St. Anthony tower on
the Minnesota Transfer (now Minnesota Commercial), and instead of turning
west/north on the ex-NP towards Northtown Yard, Coon Creek Jct., and Duluth,
because someone neglected to set that route correctly, the train - in the
dark - crossed the VERY busy NP line and kept going north on the Transfer's
rudimentary 10 MPH "main" track. The Transfer is all Yard Limits and unsignalled,
so nobody noticed, except the crew when things started to peter out deep in the
northern suburbs. It finally occurred to them that things didn't look right, so
they stopped and radioed for rescue.

So here's the conversation...

Disp.....I'm going to take you up the Cynwyd line for the reverse move.

Crew...So we went up the cynywd line till we got a red signal. We were assuming that the disp knocked down the signal where he wanted us to stop.

Disp.....I thought they knew where to stop.

Crew....If the disp saw us going past where he wanted us to stop, why didn't he call us.

mgmt...didn't the RR look unfamiliar

crew..yes, but the disp said he was taking us up the cynwyd line

etc, etc.

HA !!! ... i assume this was conversation in the interrogation room back at the office after the incident

pdt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So here's the conversation...
>
> Disp.....I'm going to take you up the Cynwyd line
> for the reverse move.
>

typical transmission nothing out of the ordinary except the move itself

> Crew...So we went up the cynywd line till we got a
> red signal. We were assuming that the disp
> knocked down the signal where he wanted us to
> stop.
>

first mistake ... they should've known where the reverse signal is for JO Zoo

> disp.....I thought they knew where to stop.
>

as he should ... he has to assume all crews are currently qualified on PCs for the territory


> Crew....If the disp saw us going past where he
> wanted us to stop, why didn't he call us.
>

CETC doesn't control the west end so the opr leverman and train director at Zoo would've seen a light on their board for 4 Valley no matter where they were between JO and Valley ... what would've brought something to their attention was when the light TOL light went dark after they passsed Valley .. that would've been the first clue the train and crew weren't where they were suppose to be

> mgmt...didn't the RR look unfamiliar

EXACTLY !!! but being train crews only have to run over a territory once within a calender year and that since no Amtrak trains run on this line except for Simple reverse moves at Zoo where they just have to clear the signal they probably never ran a train on this section of track just explaining to the rules examiner the designation of that track and where it leads to
>
> crew..yes, but the disp said he was taking us up
> the cynwyd line
>
> etc, etc.

being they were clueless on how to make a SIMPLE reverse move at Zoo ... this statement doesn't surpirse me

my opinion ... put this crew on a straight line with clear signals to their destination and yeah they're OK but the railroad doesn't run with the assumption everything is going to go as planned ... in fact just the opposite is true ... be prepared at all times for when things don't go as planned ... i equate this with a person who comes up to road closed and the road hwy flagman says make a right/left and just go around the block and they (insert gender here)say i don't know how to do that ... but with all that being said if this crew couldn't make a SIMPLE reverse move then they have no business running that train ... someone on the train the conductor and/or ac seeing the the engineer was heading conductor should've said hey something isnt right here ... hey if that's my job on the line and i don't understand the instructions i'm surely making a call to Zoo to clarify where i'm going and what i'm suppose to do ... making assumptions thinking you know where you're headed instead of KNOWING where you're headed will no doubt get you in deep DO DO as it certainly did for this crew



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/13 11:06 by Out_Of_Service.

You know, my "conversation" was just a representative sample. A tongue-in-cheek estimate of what would have been said.
It's not the actual conversation, you dummies. That's highly private info with lawyers present, at this point.

Here's and even better estimated transmission.

Disp.....I'm taking you up the Cynywyd line for the reverse move.

Amtk...Roger, how far do you want us to go?

Disp....silence

Disp....(talking to another train on a yard track) Yea, you can bring it down to the end of the track

2 trains responding on top of each other....Roger (train number)

That's how these things happen.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/13 09:24 by pdt.

I feel sorry for everyone involved in this. There may have been a lot going on, and juggling various orders etc can be confusing, perhaps.

At best, it won't be pretty. At worst, it will be pretty ugly for a number of folks.

But, again, nobody was injured or killed.

pdt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Amtk...Roger, how far do you want us to go?
>
> Disp....silence
>
> Disp....(talking to another train on a yard track)
> Yea, you can bring it down to the end of the
> track
>
> 2 trains responding on top of each other....Roger
> (train number)
>
> That's how these things happen.
======================================

The scenario assumes a crew who is not familiar with the physical characteristics, as they are
REQUIRED to be. They did not KNOW that Amtrak authority did not extend past the 52nd St. signal,
as they are required to. Or the engineer didn't know (have to assume that, he didn't stop for
the whole two miles of the line, past two passenger stations with names that MUST have been
unfamiliar, before finally stopping past the third one, where a track barricade is visible) and
the conductor either didn't notice, or didn't want to blow their cover by talking on the radio.
Either way they get to try and explain themselves to a hearing officer.

Further information but nothing at all that excuses the crew:

The SEPTA Ivy Ridge Line (official name) has signals only at the east and west ends of the line.
If a SEPTA train had been somewhere on the line, even running same direction ahead of the westbound
Amtrak, Amtrak would have encountered a restricting SEPTA signal that hopefully would have stopped or
slowed them before entering single track, although they would already have been on SEPTA territory
and in violation of rules. If there had been a scheduled SEPTA train coming east toward Amtrak,
it would have taken the alternate route from the one on which Amtrak entered SEPTA territory; the
switch at JEFF would have been lined against Amtrak (had they continued, they would run through
the switch or derail), and the SEPTA signal would have been RED.

A SEPTA official I contacted verifies that Amtrak is not permitted to operate on the SEPTA Ivy Ridge
Line without a SEPTA pilot (which had to happen when Amtrak 644 departed Cynwyd to resume
its trip to New York).



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/13 10:07 by GenePoon.

Everyone's a critic. brain farts happen. Maybe there was a septa pilot on the train. who knows.
No metal bent, no one hurt. Give them a mulligan.

pdt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Everyone's a critic. brain farts happen. Maybe
> there was a septa pilot on the train. who knows.
> No metal bent, no one hurt. Give them a
> mulligan.

i wasnt trying to be critical just stating some facts and my own opinion and i do believe in second chances as i have had a few and i would concur to give them a mulligan but you know that is NOT going to happen but with that being said this way more serious than just a brain fart ... i would venture to say that the signals at Valley and Jeff were displayed for the next wb move and that i don't believe no matter where they were that the engineer would run a RED which is why they ended up where they did ...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/15/13 13:56 by Out_Of_Service.

Out_Of_Service Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> they (insert gender here)say i don't know how to
> do that ... but with all that being said if this
> crew couldn't make a SIMPLE reverse move then they
> have no business running that train ... someone on
> the train the conductor and/or ac seeing the the
> engineer was heading conductor should've said hey

In a reverse move with an intention to take the Subway east to NY, the engineer would have stayed in the engine, and the conductor would have been in the cab with radio communications to the engineer guiding him on how far to go and where to stop. This implies to me that the conductor just kept on going in ignorance of where to stop, and the engineer was not paying enough attention to realize they had overshot the mark.

I have heard other Keystone Conductors laugh at more clueless new conductors who DON'T know how to make a reverse move at Zoo to wye the train and have forced engine changes at 30th St. out of a fear of causing something like this, it sounds like one of the new and unqualified was pressured into making this move and lived down to expectations.

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I feel sorry for everyone involved in this.

The only people I feel sorry for are the passengers who were stuck on the train. American railroad management is so fixated on determining blame that serving their customers is never considered.

SZ [ who might also feel sorry for any SEPTA passengers that expected to use that branch, but I don't know if any SEPTA services were affected. I would guess so.]

abyler Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Out_Of_Service Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > they (insert gender here)say i don't know how
> to
> > do that ... but with all that being said if
> this
> > crew couldn't make a SIMPLE reverse move then
> they
> > have no business running that train ... someone
> on
> > the train the conductor and/or ac seeing the
> the
> > engineer was heading conductor should've said
> hey
>
> In a reverse move with an intention to take the
> Subway east to NY, the engineer would have stayed
> in the engine, and the conductor would have been
> in the cab with radio communications to the
> engineer guiding him on how far to go and where to
> stop. This implies to me that the conductor just
> kept on going in ignorance of where to stop, and
> the engineer was not paying enough attention to
> realize they had overshot the mark.
>
> I have heard other Keystone Conductors laugh at
> more clueless new conductors who DON'T know how to
> make a reverse move at Zoo to wye the train and
> have forced engine changes at 30th St. out of a
> fear of causing something like this, it sounds
> like one of the new and unqualified was pressured
> into making this move and lived down to
> expectations.


correct scenario under normal circumstances ... unless the conductor requested the engineer to occupy the cab car since he or she might not have known where to stop ... we don't know who was in the cab car as of yet ... that fact will come out in the investigation

Just a guess, and that's all it is, no facts known. Amtrak has been adamant lately that Engineers change ends in order to help prevent incidents such as this. I was on The Vermonter as it made a see-saw move recently in Palmer, and the Engineer changed ends three times between the diesel and the cab car.

But even if the Engineer had been in the locomotive on the rear, which doesn't make sense unless the controls of the cab car weren't working, if the train kept going for 2 1/2 miles past the west end of Zoo, all the way through 2 passenger stations on a line not familiar to him, all the way to the bumping block at Cynwyd, I'd have to say that the Engineer has some culpability.

knotch8 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just a guess, and that's all it is, no facts
> known. Amtrak has been adamant lately that
> Engineers change ends in order to help prevent
> incidents such as this. I was on The Vermonter as
> it made a see-saw move recently in Palmer, and the
> Engineer changed ends three times between the
> diesel and the cab car.
>
> But even if the Engineer had been in the
> locomotive on the rear, which doesn't make sense
> unless the controls of the cab car weren't
> working, if the train kept going for 2 1/2 miles
> past the west end of Zoo, all the way through 2
> passenger stations on a line not familiar to him,
> all the way to the bumping block at Cynwyd, I'd
> have to say that the Engineer has some
> culpability.

i will say whenever crews have to wye a train in Philly through Zoo and Girard and have to make a reverse move in the process the conductor or ac/brakeman would be the point person just for time constraint reasons and all perfectly legal especially when the conductor is the charge person of the crew but on the other hand there are relatively new conductors that engineers have to work with and vice versa ... the thing is everyone in the crew should be looking out for each other because everyone's job is on the line no matter who screws up ... one guy in the crew messes up the whole crew gets pulled