Western Railroad Discussion > Railroad property lines

Recently there was a post regarding a railfan that received a trespass citation from a local law enforcement officer.

Yes, I understand we railfans feel picked on and harassed. I also understand that some law enforcement officers may be a bit overzealous. I’ve been in this position several times. I’ve met several Barney Fifes and several very professional officers.

Take a look at the attached photo. Is this railfan on railroad property?

Here are a few things to consider:

Unless you and/or the officer has an official map showing exactly where the railroad property lines are located, neither of you has a clue where it might actually be. I worked in a surveyor's office for nearly 10 years and was routinely surprised how much land is still owned by railroads. This includes land where the rails, tracks and roadbed have been gone for 50+ years.

I routinely hear people say 20 feet, 50 feet, or 100 feet wide, but no one is really sure. Assuming a fence is a property line is another mistake. There are no requirements that fences be erected exactly upon the property lines. A fence can be built anywhere the fence buyer desires. Many fences are built upon others' property by mistake, too.

In the western states, railroads were compensated for their original construction costs with huge tracts of land. These could be open lands in rural areas or now-developed property in urban areas which the railroads still own.

Railroad ROW (right-of-way) widths vary from state to state, and can vary within the state due to the railroad’s sale of land adjacent to the tracks. Inside city limits, the railroad ROW could be as narrow as 20 feet from the centerline of the tracks, or could extend from the centerline of the tracks to the ROW line of the nearby public street.

Although the railroad may have abandoned the trackage, many times the railroad still owns the land. The railroad ROW may revert back to the original owner or the state. This typically depends on the original agreement authorizing railroad construction. I know of several instances where an abandoned rail property was sold or leased to a pipeline, telecommunications or utility company. Lawyers create many billable hours investigating, interpreting, and litigating these old agreements.

I've always found it more prudent to heed the officer's warning and leave the location. They have a badge, gun, taser, mace, baton, radio, handcuffs and citation book. Plus they can call for additional help. You can't. Officers don't like to be put in a position where their original commands aren't followed. They rarely budge on such issues. Once the citation book comes out, your chances of creating a convincing argument are close to zero. Sometimes you have to exercise your right to remain silent. Being married for 17 years has taught me this if nothing else.

(Maybe I should revise that last statement, “Being married to the most wonderful, caring, beautiful and kind woman for 17 years…” This might prevent me from residing in the proverbial canine hospitality suite.)

If you feel you have been wronged, abused, and/or unjustly treated, complain to the police department or agency office the next day. If you feel worse, hire a lawyer and tell it to a judge.

Unfortunately, husbands have no higher authority to air their grievances. We continue to suffer...in silence...

Mark
Salem, Oregon

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Gee I hope not (on right-of-way) but you never know.

Tom Y

The railroad was granted large tracts of land..... and with surveyors bending the rules.... some railroad land granted was miles from the tracks. Local town park is on a piece of railroad land as are a few businesses in town. So walking on railroad property is not unusual. Trespass has another meaning and walking on property does not constitute trespass. People do understand what trespass is.... asked to leave is another situation.

Nice post.....thx

Railroads have been paying property tax on all that land they got, and gave the govt. reduced rates in wartime... so it evens out.

Bill Deaver
Tehachapi, CA

Downtown SAN FRANCISCO from 1 market plaza to CITY HALL was owned not by the city but SOUTHERN PACIFIC & the A.T.S.F.....until all the mergers. Don't know who own the city now. So figure out the property line on that.

More on land grants, which aren't as straightforward as most believe besides with the creation of RR land companies, and their subsequent spin-off in the last few decades, it's even more complex:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~marshallduluth/41%20Duluth,%20MN/13%20Duluth%20Area%20Maps/1860-1900_federal_railroad_land_grants.jpg
http://www.coxrail.com/land-grants.htm

Technically speaking, the state of Georgia owns CSX's W&A sub from Atlanta,GA - Chattanooga,TN. So what if I got cited by a CSX cop? CSX has a 100 year lease on it however.

I remember hearing years ago how the UP right of way through Nebraska/Wyoming was originally MILES on either side of the tracks, which was one of the reasons why the road was able to survive. Need some cash? Sell some land. No idea how true that actually was.

The photo is of a eastbound at Meacham, Oregon and the person is defiantly on railroad property. The line use to pass just in front of the railfan until it was changed back in the 90's

Ted Curphey
Ontario, OR

Many BNSF track charts show the property boundaries. However, boundaries can change and who knows if the boundaries are updated on track charts. As an example, on the Harbor Sub (L.A. to Watson near San Pedro), it's 75' on each side starting at Harbor Jct. with the San Bernardino Sub. It narrows to 30' along Slauson Ave. over the Alameda Corridor, then 15' on each side to the Harbor Frwy., except it widens to 90' on the north (non-Slauson Ave.) side at the Wingfoot Station. Then it's 15' on the south, 25' on the north, except 65' on the north side at Wildasin Station. After curving and crossing Slauson, it's 25' on each side to Manchester Ave. xing, except 75' on the south at Hyde Park Station. Then 30' each side to El Segundo, then 75' to Lawndale, and so on. You get the idea- I left out a few burps, but this is still a constantly changing boundary. On the track chart, there are no dimensions given where these changes in width take place. You'd have to look at more detailed right-of-way maps to know with certainty. Unless a cop is way off base, if asked to move, I'm not going to call his bluff.

How about out in the wide open desert? The Cajon Sub chart doesn't give a dimension until East Oro Grande- 100' on each side. That widens to 200' on each side at the Helendale team track, then 50' on north, 100' on south for a mile, then 100' on each side again to MP 5, then 50' each side into Barstow Yard. The Needles Sub is 100' on each side, usually widening to 200' each side where there were former stations. If UP is similar to BNSF (UP doesn't show ROW width on their modern track charts), at 70' you would be inside their property in most rural areas and some urban areas.

mapboy

Ted has the location correct, but I don’t think the use of the word “defiantly” is justified. This railfan isn’t defying anyone. There was no one around except Mr. Cowboy Railfan and myself on that day.

This photo provides a good example. Attached is a county assessor’s map of the Town of Etna, Oregon, showing the railroad ROW (right-of-way) and adjacent properties. Sorry if the images are fuzzy.

Not sure of the relationship of the towns of Meacham and Etna to each other than they are adjacent on the maps. To the best of my recollection, our location appears to be within Etna.

The railroad ROW is 100’ wide, 50’ on each side of the original track centerline.

Looking at the maps, the railfan could be sitting within Lots 2, 3, 4 or 5. Who owns these lots? That would take more investigation.

Or is the railfan within the 30’ buffer between the property lines and the town limits? Is the roadway in the foreground considered a public thoroughfare?

Without doing an extensive amount of investigation and measuring, it is difficult to determine exactly where the railroad ROW is located.

However, I can tell you that is a UPRR Police/Special Agent, County Sheriff, or other law enforcement had told us to leave, we would have packed up and gone somewhere else.

Mark
Salem, Oregon



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/08/12 00:08 by atsf5701.

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The part about former team tracks, sidings, freight houses, etc is important, too.

I was standing in what I thought was a small park along a bend in a town along the NS (former Wabash) in Ohio. probably 100 feet away from the right of way.

High railer came by, stopped, a maintainer got out and walked over.

"You may not know this, but you're on railroad property. There used to be a freight house and a bunch of tracks here. I have to ask you to leave. Nothing personal."

I thanked him and walked over to the street, about 15 feet away. I was surprised that NS hadn't posted it if they don't want people on it. While I was there, people walked back and forth across the "park" crossed the tracks and walked up the hill.

The only RR property lines that have had 'witness posts' erected marking theproperty line are on the FEC. Big ugly and concrete. Leftover from the old bitter strike.

atsf5701 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Recently there was a post regarding a railfan that

> Being married for 17 years
> has taught me this if nothing else.
>
> (Maybe I should revise that last statement,
> “Being married to the most wonderful, caring,
> beautiful and kind woman for 17 years…” This
> might prevent me from residing in the proverbial
> canine hospitality suite.)
>
> If you feel you have been wronged, abused, and/or
> unjustly treated, complain to the police
> department or agency office the next day. If you
> feel worse, hire a lawyer and tell it to a judge.
>
>
> Unfortunately, husbands have no higher authority
> to air their grievances. We continue to
> suffer...in silence...
>
> Mark
> Salem, Oregon

FINALLY, a perspective on the issue that we (married men) can relate to. Thanks for helping me apply this slowly-learned life lesson to RR photography!

I think funnelfan might have meant to say "definitely" rather than "defiantly".

About ten years ago the BNSF Police tried evict some people who had parked some semi-tailers adjacent to the old Frisco right-of-way at 29th St. in the Rosedale area, and who were living in them. The people refused to leave and the BNSF Police tried to arrest them for trespassing. The people wouldn't budge and a confrontation supposedly took place. I never heard for sure what happend after that, but the people the parking the trailers produced a deed that showed that the BNSF did not own the land, and the trailers are there to this day.So much for the 50-100 ft rule

The issue and one of the more salient points is that in most states, private property or not, if you have allowed
trespass, right of way or use for some projected period you essentially have given up your right to deny passage.
To arbitrarily order someone off questionable property can easily provoke reverse litigation. The UP may have
many attorneys but they also have deep pockets and tend to shy away from negative publicity over unclear
issues.

rehunn Wrote:
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> The issue and one of the more salient points is
> that in most states, private property or not, if
> you have allowed
> trespass, right of way or use for some projected
> period you essentially have given up your right to
> deny passage.
> To arbitrarily order someone off questionable
> property can easily provoke reverse litigation.
> The UP may have
> many attorneys but they also have deep pockets and
> tend to shy away from negative publicity over
> unclear
> issues.

Yes.

I suspect the presence of NO TRESPASSING signs is directly related to (1) problems the railroad has experienced in the area, and (2) the litigation risk if a trespasser is injured, etc

Approximately three years ago I was eating lunch while parked about 40 feet from the rails in the shade of an oak tree near the west end of the Strathearn siding in Simi Valley, California. A lady in a Metrolink pickup truck told me I must leave railroad property. I did, knowing that I could return at any time. I later accessed the county assessor's maps online. Hoo boy! The area in question is quite complex from the surveyor's standpoint. Multiple radii, poorly referenced points, et cetera. I'll wager that copies of these maps would thoroughly befuddle a judge. Just my 2¢.
...Lorenzo

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> rehunn Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The issue and one of the more salient points is
> > that in most states, private property or not,
> if
> > you have allowed
> > trespass, right of way or use for some
> projected
> > period you essentially have given up your right
> to
> > deny passage.
> > To arbitrarily order someone off questionable
> > property can easily provoke reverse litigation.
> > The UP may have
> > many attorneys but they also have deep pockets
> and
> > tend to shy away from negative publicity over
> > unclear
> > issues.
>
> Yes.
>
> I suspect the presence of NO TRESPASSING signs is
> directly related to (1) problems the railroad has
> experienced in the area, and (2) the litigation
> risk if a trespasser is injured, etc

both examples directly relating to IDIOTS