Model Railroading > WP Calfornia Zephyr at Golden Gate MR in SF

The California Zephyr train was bequest to our group but we did not have very good locomotives to
pull it. That has now been resolved with three CB&Q E units and three WP Fs. Next comes the Rio Grande
power. Golden Gate Railroad Club at Randall Museum in San Francisco.

Regards, Jim Evans

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Very nice photos, Jim...

Paul Liddiard
Spanish Fork, UT

Always a pleasure to see classic CZ photo's.

For the remaining D&RGW power, I would suggest the following:

1949-1958 - PA/PB/PA. Proto 2000 or BLI (painted black with yellow stripes only for a few months of CZ operation in 1949 and quickly repainted in silver, with orange noses thru about 1952, then painted in yellow/silver with 4 black stripes)

Around 1950, one of the two PA/PB/PA sets pulling the CZ on the D&RGW was replaced with an F3ABBA set, so between 1951 and 1958, one set was pulled by Alco and the other was pulled by EMD. In 1958, the remaining PA/PB/PA set was removed from CZ service and placed on secondary D&RGW trains. I may have seen one photo of a Alco powered CZ on the D&RGW in 1959 but that was a rare photo by then.

1951-1966 - F3ABBA. Genesis is most accurate for the body, Proto 2000 is pretty close and has more prototypical details, more recently MTH. (the F3's operated in black with yellow stripes in 1951 but were soon painted in yellow/silver 4-stripe from 1952 to spring of 1961, and were then repainted in the single stripe version. All the F3's were retired by end of 1965 and traded in to EMD Jan 1966.

1966-1970 - F7ABBA and F9ABBA. Athearn Genesis offers the definitive F9 and accurate phase versions of the F7 as well. The single stripe paint was introduced on the F units in spring of 1961 so the when the F7's and F9's took over in 1965 on the CZ, they were in single stripe. The road numbers of F7's used were in the passenger series #5551, 5552, 5553, 5554, 5561, 5562, 5563, 5564, 5571,5572,5573,5574, and 5761, 5764 - numbers ending in 1 or 4 were A units and ending in 2 or 3 were B units.

Cheers, Jim Fitch



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/14 05:09 by SPDRGWfan.

As is usual, motive power seems to be of more import that the correctness of the cars. If the early schemes of PAs were to be used, you'd have to equip the train with FWD, something not many are willing to do.

Thanks for the proto type Rio Grande motive power information. I'm thinking Fs because that is what I rode behind in 1966 when
riding the CZ to Grand Junction from Oakland, California.

Regards, Jim Evans

rswebber Wrote:
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> As is usual, motive power seems to be of more
> import that the correctness of the cars.

Apologies. I can only offer information on things I have knowledge of. I didn't mean to imply any a value judgment one way or the other.

Thanks for the info other FWD - I didn't know that. Speaking of era correct CZ cars, how long did the full width diaphragms last?

Cheers, Jim Fitch

No apologies are needed or warranted. My point is, and I don't mean to hijack this particular thread as it really isn't an apt image of my point, but that people will go all out in determining the exact horns on a locomotive, and care little about the passenger train behind it. Usually, it's "rolling scenery" - if that.

FWD were removed from 1954 - 1956. The 1956 DZ received them as built, which tells you something (though not sure what).

Now, tinting is another indicator of time frame, as is consist. Where is the 16 section car? Behind the diner, in front of the diner, in back of the baggage car, in front of the obs? Where is the transcon sleeper? Is it there? Is your dorm-buffet-dome running forward, but all the seats in the dome backward? How many coaches are there? Do you have foreign cars? Where, what type? How about HW baggage cars? The lsit goes on.

In order to correctly consist the CZ (assuming you want to - not doing so is obviously fine too, it's your train)you have to know the era, year, time of year,location, direction, and myriad other factors.

For instance, you have a CZ and you want it for, say, 1962. Heading WB, on the CB&Q between Lincoln and Denver in early summer. What is the consist? HW bagged, HW baggage, jeep, Baggage, flat top pre-war Budd coach, dome coach, dome coach, dome coach, dome dorm, 10-6, 10-6, 10-6, likely a SP/C&O/NKP/or other sleeper and the dome obs. Now, outside of Denver, you drop the first 3 cars and the flat top. Then a dome coach at GJ. If you look at that same train, 1 month later, the flat top drops at either GJ or SLC, and all dome coaches stay on - and likely have another flat top for a tour group, and 2-3 foreign sleepers. Same train, 2 years later, the flat top is one of the 16 section cars (they had been on lease to Pullman prior to that) and the flat top may no go to Reno - or the whole route. In the winter, not holiday period, non ski days, you'd see only 2 dome coaches, no flat top, and likely no foreign sleeper. Just as likely have a FLOWER car behind the baggage as a dorm, and a KCZ/ARZ dome-buffet substituting for a dome dorm in maintenance. Oh, and substitute a Q BA-19 for the baggage car. Yeah, there was that much variation, and that's only for a couple of periods. Extend that out over 30 years. Foreign sleepers were added as early as 1949 (C&O 11 DBR or 10-6 or ACL 10-6).

The concept that the CZ was always - or even usually - a pure consist is bunk. That it wasn't switched en route, ditto. That it never had HW cars, ditto. That it was always the same 9 to 13 cars - ditto. Etc, etc.

Tinting is a contentious issue, why, I'm not sure. Some people "remember" that there was none. 60 years later, they remember it clearly (no pun intended). the earliest specifications and the descriptions say otherwise. But tinting did change, exactly when, is up in the air.

The list goes on and on - I happen to like the CZ as pictured, but, from personal experience, from original documents, and discussions with passenger agents and personal on the trains...I know I have to make changes. And when the Expo is running, I know the FWD have to be installed on the CZ cars in consist. And....the diesels are the rolling scenery... (or the cab forwards)

rswebber Wrote:
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> The concept that the CZ was always - or even
> usually - a pure consist is bunk. That it wasn't
> switched en route, ditto. That it never had HW
> cars, ditto. That it was always the same 9 to 13
> cars - ditto. Etc, etc.

IMO that's not a bad thing. Even if the CZ appeared to have a certain configuration based on popular photo's, people still put it together "wrong" and run domes at the back and all kinds of things that might drive some crazy!

From a modeling standpoint, I think it's cool to figure out how to mix things up a bit, and copy the real CZ by adding in foreign cars or running non-typical consists. I'd like to find reasonably correct HO cars that look like actual UP, GN, NYC, Pennsy etc. cars seen in the CZ in photo's. I've got some books like Colorful Colorado Railroads and others that show the CZ with foreign cars - it's interesting to see these non-standard consists - I want to model them!

> I happen to like the CZ
> as pictured, but, from personal experience, from
> original documents, and discussions with passenger
> agents and personal on the trains...I know I have
> to make changes.

Me too, I plan on running the CZ in those "typical" pictured versions as well as the others too. If you happen to have identified any passenger cars seen in the real CZ from makers such as Walther's or others, please let me know!

Cheers, Jim Fitch

What is the status of the club Jim, how long does it have?

I have identified over 100. I have a PDF that has 7.5 pages of it - but I haven't updated it with a lot of newer cars - this was put together before the City trains came out from Walthers, so....a LOT of cars could be added. I know there are a couple of errors (typos) in it, haven't touched it for years. I cut off the links to it, but it can still be found:
http://www.pullmancar.org/czfc.pdf

SPDRGWfan Wrote:
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If you happen to have identified any
> passenger cars seen in the real CZ from makers
> such as Walther's or others, please let me know!
>
> Cheers, Jim Fitch