Western Railroad Discussion > Hogger Talk: GEVO vs. SD70ACe

By now, many of the regulars on here should have had plenty of time to compare the GEVO vs. the SD70ACe, depending on which routes they work.

I still tend to get SD70M's, along with NS run-through power, but, have finally gotten ONE GEVO, and, most recently, ONE SD70ACe, spaced apart by a couple of months.

I think both units are great. I like the new cab interior setup. Ironically, on both trips, both with the ES44AC, and with the SD70ACe, I had one SD40-2R trailing, and, the trains were both less than 5000 tons, so it was pretty much an equal experience.

I found both locomotives to be very nice. The main thing that I noticed is that with BOTH the new GE and EMD AC-drive units, there is a complete absence of the old "Boogie Shake", or, otherwise known as "Earthquake Mode" in the initial starting stages. This leads me to believe that both builders have made great technological advances in the software and control components for AC propulsion compared to the oldest C44AC's and SD9043AC's...has anybody else noticed this under heavy load conditions?

I rate both locomotives an A+ in both pulling power and ergonomics.

As for the SD70ACe...it is quieter inside than an SD70M due to better insulation, but, louder, naturally, than the "Whisper Cab" equipped SD9043AC's (now EMD mounts the primer mover in rubber, rather than the cab itself...leading to a little more noise, but, eliminates the sometimes wobbly ride on the Whisper Cab units). Outside, of course, all three units sound identical having the base 16-cylinder 710 engine. There were interesting little touches in the construction of the SD70ACe, from cab interior...from stem to stern...it's hard to explain, but the "fit and finish" seemed to be at a slightly higher level than the already excellent SD70M. The placement of walkway lighting...the steps, even the doors seemed to close with a more solid "thunk"...sort of like comparing a more expensive automobile to a less expensive one.

One thing I'll rate the GE higher on...and this is a very important factor at night (and also very easily CORRECTED in future construction): the GEVO's retain a reading light over the mini-desk for trainorders, just as desktop control stand units have always had. The SD70ACe, however, lacks a reading light, although there IS space to put one. This is a flaw on both the SD70ACe's and the 5127-5231 Class SD70M's with the AAR control stand, which are really my favorite power except for this glaring absence. To illuminate the mini-desk on the SD70ACe...you are forced to keep the primary overhead light on on the engineer's side, which is an irritant both to the engineer, and, to the conductor across the cab. This is the one thing I'd change about the SD70ACe/SD70M-2 line.

Other than this one honest critique, I think that both GE and EMD have winners on their hands with these new environmentally friendly models, and am glad that sales are brisk with both builders.

Does anybody else have any experiences they'd like to share? Conductor experiences welcome, also...you guys get to experience the way these beasts are operating, too!!! BTW...oddly...on the 5127-5231 Class UP SD70M's, my favorites, the conductor gets a reading light...I don't!!! As I recall, on the SD70ACe, the conductor AND the engineer lack reading lights, and are forced to use the main overhead light, while on the GEVO, both crew members get a reading light, as has been standard practice since the introduction of North American Cabs.

Here's to hoping that an EMD employee will take note (or, a high-ranking Class I Mechanical type) of this deficiency on the SD70ACe/SD70M-2 line...otherwise a magnificent machine!!!

Well Red, I prefer the SD70M over the SD70ACe but that is only because I really don't care for the video screens. But if I could have the SD70M with the "new" old style control stand with the air gauges instead of the screens, I'd love the SD70Ms forever. However, the "new" old type of control stand needs a little work done to it like moving the brake valves forward just a little so the brake valve is to your left and not behind you. Plus the air gauges need to aimed towards the engineer, not out the side window. I know that the air gauges are going to be a thing of the past but that is just my opinion. If they are going to stick to the video screens, and I'm sure they will, I'd like to make a few suggestions to both builders. First of all, make the numbers bigger on the screens when it comes to brake pipe pressure and such. This old guy's eyes are not quite as good as they once were so making them easier to see is a big plus in my book. Also, when you put the software in for the ET and the counter, give the engineer the option of whether he wants the counter to count up or down like GE has done on some of their newer units. I prefer it to count up but others prefer to count down.

I'm really not a big fan of the new GE locomotives and here is why. I do not care for the whole desktop vibrating back and forth when the throttle is in run 8 to the point where I have to keep an eye on my drink and other things to see if it's going to fall onto the floor or not. The EMDs don't vibrate like that. So why should the GEs do it? Yeah, I know why. It's a case of the 4 cycle diesel vs the 2 cycle diesel. Another thing I don't care about is the cab light on the engineers side of the GEs. Why does it shine on my lap instead of on the control stand? To me that is very annoying. Make it a swivel light fixture like what is on the SD70s that do shine on the desktop. The engineer's cab light on the EMDs are much better as it does shine on the control stand and not on my lap or chest.

I know some fellow engineers who have always been EMD fans have said that the GEs are better pullers than the EMDs and like them better. Maybe so. I don't get the chance to run the new GEs very much as my pool usually has an SD70 on the point with a few minor exceptions. I also prefer the DC traction to the AC traction but that is a personal opinion. I just don't like it when the engine bounces up and down as you start the train or as you come to a stop with the throttle open. Again, it's a personal opinion.

I have always been an EMD guy as I cut my eye teeth on GP9s as a young kid in the late '60s but I did have a great appreciation for the U30Cs (when you could get them to load) but not so much for the U33Cs.

I guess that's about all I can think of to say about the two types of engines that seem to be the most prevalent on the main line today.

JE

Steamjocky Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well Red, I prefer the SD70M over the SD70ACe but
> that is only because I really don't care for the
> video screens. But if I could have the SD70M with
> the "new" old style control stand with the air
> gauges instead of the screens, I'd love the SD70Ms
> forever. However, the "new" old type of control
> stand needs a little work done to it like moving
> the brake valves forward just a little so the
> brake valve is to your left and not behind you.
> Plus the air gauges need to aimed towards the
> engineer, not out the side window. I know that
> the air gauges are going to be a thing of the past
> but that is just my opinion. If they are going to
> stick to the video screens, and I'm sure they
> will, I'd like to make a few suggestions to both
> builders. First of all, make the numbers bigger
> on the screens when it comes to brake pipe
> pressure and such. This old guy's eyes are not
> quite as good as they once were so making them
> easier to see is a big plus in my book. Also,
> when you put the software in for the ET and the
> counter, give the engineer the option of whether
> he wants the counter to count up or down like GE
> has done on some of their newer units. I prefer
> it to count up but others prefer to count down.
>
> I'm really not a big fan of the new GE locomotives
> and here is why. I do not care for the whole
> desktop vibrating back and forth when the throttle
> is in run 8 to the point where I have to keep an
> eye on my drink and other things to see if it's
> going to fall onto the floor or not. The EMDs
> don't vibrate like that. So why should the GEs do
> it? Yeah, I know why. It's a case of the 4 cycle
> diesel vs the 2 cycle diesel. Another thing I
> don't care about is the cab light on the engineers
> side of the GEs. Why does it shine on my lap
> instead of on the control stand? To me that is
> very annoying. Make it a swivel light fixture
> like what is on the SD70s that do shine on the
> desktop. The engineer's cab light on the EMDs are
> much better as it does shine on the control stand
> and not on my lap or chest.
>
> I know some fellow engineers who have always been
> EMD fans have said that the GEs are better pullers
> than the EMDs and like them better. Maybe so. I
> don't get the chance to run the new GEs very much
> as my pool usually has an SD70 on the point with a
> few minor exceptions. I also prefer the DC
> traction to the AC traction but that is a personal
> opinion. I just don't like it when the engine
> bounces up and down as you start the train or as
> you come to a stop with the throttle open. Again,
> it's a personal opinion.
>
> I have always been an EMD guy as I cut my eye
> teeth on GP9s as a young kid in the late '60s but
> I did have a great appreciation for the U30Cs
> (when you could get them to load) but not so much
> for the U33Cs.
>
> I guess that's about all I can think of to say
> about the two types of engines that seem to be the
> most prevalent on the main line today.
>
> JE

JE:

I agree with everything you've said...but...while the old GE reading light was inferior to the EMD reading light...with the brand new units, you now have a case where GE has a reading light, and EMD does not have one at all. It would be very easy for EMD to stick the swiveling reading light back into the SD70ACe. And, if you notice, on the 5127-5231 class SD70M's...the conductor retains the swiveling reading light, while the engineer does not get one at all.

I also agree that the 26L setup is a little tricky to get by on the late-model SD70M's with the AAR control stand...the WABCO electronic brake valve on the SD70ACe and GEVO is not quite as tricky to get around to get into your seat, but, then you've lost the 26L brake valve and the duplex air gauges. I personally don't mind the WABCO air brake, though I do love the 26L.

I agree about the bouncing and jerking of the AC power...but next time you get a brand new one...an SD70ACe or a GEVO...and see if you can tell what I'm saying...they have smoothed that out...the old herky-jerky "Earthquake Mode". I literally found the ES44AC and the SD70ACe on the two trains that I had with them to be as smooth as DC-powered units...I literally couldn't tell the difference...this is what impressed me so much. Thus my statement that I think both builders have developed more sophisticated control software for AC-propulsion (Even when the older AC's were brand new and exhibited all this jumping around...I figured that after a decade or so...they would probably find a way to smooth this out...and it appears that they have with both the GEVO's and the SD70ACe's).

I'm an EMD man through and through...to the core. I agree with you about the vibration of the FDL-16 4-cycle. The solution on older AC's has been to wedge a RR spike between the edge of the desk and the cab wall...that ALWAYS does the trick...no more vibrating control desk, and it doesn't hurt a thing...it's not destruction of company property or anything...if anything...in addition to making the cab MUCH quieter and more enjoyable...that spike is probably SAVING company property from vibration damage!!!

But...the new GEVO-12 engine, while still a 4-cycle...seems to be MUCH smoother than the old FDL-16. And...there's no desk to rattle around with the new AAR control stand. But that aside...desk or no desk...the GEVO-12 engine...it's just a smoother engine than the FDL-16. You'll probably find this to be the case when you get a UP ES44AC, or, a BNSF ES44DC or ES44AC (or, an NS ES40DC...it seems like every hoghead in the nation, regardless of their employer, gets to run the well-traveled NS widebody fleet!!!).

Red Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> By now, many of the regulars on here should have
> had plenty of time to compare the GEVO vs. the
> SD70ACe, depending on which routes they work.

Beleive or not red, I never get weither of thee models. I did once have ab ES44AC as a DPU unit on a hopper train, fat lot of good that did me. Other than that I have only had 1 of each while dog catching, and as a result didnt have much time to poke a round or compare them .

> I found both locomotives to be very nice. The
> main thing that I noticed is that with BOTH the
> new GE and EMD AC-drive units, there is a complete
> absence of the old "Boogie Shake", or, otherwise
> known as "Earthquake Mode" in the initial starting
> stages. This leads me to believe that both
> builders have made great technological advances in
> the software and control components for AC
> propulsion compared to the oldest C44AC's and
> SD9043AC's...has anybody else noticed this under
> heavy load conditions?

AS I recall, both engines were decent, but the SD70ACE was still excessivly loud, why can UP just splurge for a little extra insulation?? the main problem is the tendency for the cab to sound like an echo chamber, and t much squeaking of steel rubbing togeter while moving. The train I had the SD70ACE on was Stacj train that had just left Global3 so it only had three five packs left, and not heavy enough to make any judgements.

Th ES44AC was on a Clinton to Global3 Z train, with astreight shot, so agains didnt have much chance to check things out our make comparrisons. However I did find that control stand more user friendly, and flowed better. I also especially liked the automatic handbrake, but Idont understand why the controls are on the end of the long hood rather than on the back of the cab wall (like NS engines)

> I rate both locomotives an A+ in both pulling
> power and ergonomics.

Did EMD finally make it where individual traction motors can be cut out? or if one motor goes do you still loose the whole truck?? Until they do this EMD will continue to be inferior to GE for tractive effort.
>
> As for the SD70ACe...it is quieter inside than an
> SD70M due to better insulation, but, louder,
> naturally, than the "Whisper Cab" equipped
> SD9043AC's (now EMD mounts the primer mover in
> rubber, rather than the cab itself...leading to a
> little more noise, but, eliminates the sometimes
> wobbly ride on the Whisper Cab units). Outside,
> of course, all three units sound identical having
> the base 16-cylinder 710 engine. There were
> interesting little touches in the construction of
> the SD70ACe, from cab interior...from stem to
> stern...it's hard to explain, but the "fit and
> finish" seemed to be at a slightly higher level
> than the already excellent SD70M. The placement
> of walkway lighting...the steps, even the doors
> seemed to close with a more solid "thunk"...sort
> of like comparing a more expensive automobile to a
> less expensive one.

I really didnt think the SD70ACE was much quieter than a standard SD70M, and still too much environmental noice. The ES44AC was much quieter, more like a whisper cab, though GE engines, do over time tend to get loud.

> One thing I'll rate the GE higher on...and this is
> a very important factor at night (and also very
> easily CORRECTED in future construction): the
> GEVO's retain a reading light over the mini-desk
> for trainorders, just as desktop control stand
> units have always had. The SD70ACe, however,
> lacks a reading light, although there IS space to
> put one. This is a flaw on both the SD70ACe's and
> the 5127-5231 Class SD70M's with the AAR control
> stand, which are really my favorite power except
> for this glaring absence. To illuminate the
> mini-desk on the SD70ACe...you are forced to keep
> the primary overhead light on on the engineer's
> side, which is an irritant both to the engineer,
> and, to the conductor across the cab. This is the
> one thing I'd change about the SD70ACe/SD70M-2
> line.

AS I understand it, the reading light was sacrficed as a cost cutting measure to allow the Flags to be applied. I do not know if there is any thruthinesss to this, but if it is true, this was a stupid move, so was loosing the light switch for the nose light that used to be next to the heat-A/C controls over the control stand.

I think the GE are the better of the two. One of the main reasons is more room for the seat to swivel without hitting your knee on the brake valve like the ACE. The computer screen on the GE is more user friendly. On the ACE, every time you move the reverser, you get a maintainance window that pops up and you have to page through several screens to get back to the main screen. And the worst thing about the ACE (other than being butt ugly) is the vertical windows. I thought they learned from the first SD60's with vertical windows that you get all sorts of glare and reflections as you're moving. Another thing with the ACE's is WHAT IS WITH THE TOILET DOORS?? They're plastic and paper thin and don't even fit right. And finaly, the ACE's I've had all have had electrical problems, like not being able to MU, or the heater/a/c not working. I just think they're junk- bring back the SD70's! Since you asked.-Brian

I am a fan of the GEVOs. They hold the rails much better than a standard dash 9. I haven't had an SD70M-2 or ACE yet so I can't comment on them. The GEVOs are really quiet inside the cab. I don't like the horn sequencer placement. It's where the alerter reset is on most dash 9s so I (and many other of my felllow hoggers} tend to hit that button by mistake.



UPNW2-1083 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think the GE are the better of the two. One of
> the main reasons is more room for the seat to
> swivel without hitting your knee on the brake
> valve like the ACE. The computer screen on the GE
> is more user friendly. On the ACE, every time you
> move the reverser, you get a maintainance window
> that pops up and you have to page through several
> screens to get back to the main screen. And the
> worst thing about the ACE (other than being butt
> ugly) is the vertical windows. I thought they
> learned from the first SD60's with vertical
> windows that you get all sorts of glare and
> reflections as you're moving. Another thing with
> the ACE's is WHAT IS WITH THE TOILET DOORS??
> They're plastic and paper thin and don't even fit
> right. And finaly, the ACE's I've had all have had
> electrical problems, like not being able to MU, or
> the heater/a/c not working. I just think they're
> junk- bring back the SD70's! Since you
> asked.-Brian

Red Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> By now, many of the regulars on here should have
> had plenty of time to compare the GEVO vs. the
> SD70ACe, depending on which routes they work.
>
> I still tend to get SD70M's, along with NS
> run-through power, but, have finally gotten ONE
> GEVO, and, most recently, ONE SD70ACe, spaced
> apart by a couple of months.

Red,

I've had several of the 70M-2's, and IMHO, they're pure junk. The cab is cramped and not ergonomically friendly (has all sorts of boxes and desktops jutting out all over the place), and the control stand/desk combo (ours only has 1 computer screen in front of the engineer, no gauges) sucks if you're above 5'10" tall. Overall, the 70M-2 just looks cheaply constructed inside.

Of three that I've run, all of them (less than three months old) are showing hints of future lateral motion problems. Even under load, you can already feel the front truck hunting ... and those wonderful HTCR-II's haven't even worn in yet.

Now, my employer is starting to have electrical issues with them. Multiple units in the same class are giving repetitive wheel overspeed/possible slipped pinion fault messages, and for reasons unknown the speedometers suddenly jump up to read over 200MPH, while initiating an overspeed penalty brake application. The mechanical department has no clue how or why they're acting this way. All they know is that several of them suddenly started doing so.

And, as a message to those at EMD who thought it was a good idea to spread all the breakers and battery knife switch between three different compartments: What the heck were your idiot design engineers thinking?

Even though I am a mere conductor I will chime in and agree with the comments about cab design. Being 6'5" I constantly found myself hitting my head on something or running into whatever happened to be sticking out. To me the GE cab seems less cramped and I can actually walk around without nearly knocking myself out cold. I did like the design on the SD70M, what happened in between?

My opinion: The GE's kick ass over the SD-70ACe.

The GE's are much quieter than the EMD (that "high idle" the SD-70ACe is a killer when you're stopped).

The GE's computer screens are more user friendly and especially don't have that stupid maintenance window popping up all the time like the EMD's.

The GE's have better clearance between the seat and control stand than the EMD's (I'm "big" and kill myelf trying to get into or out of the engineer's seat on the SD-70ACe).

The GE's hold the rail better, especially in dynamic braking mode (don't even get me started on the DC SD-70M's here).

If I thought a little longer I could probably come up with more reasons but that's it for now.

Railbaron Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My opinion: The GE's kick ass over the SD-70ACe.
>
> The GE's are much quieter than the EMD (that "high
> idle" the SD-70ACe is a killer when you're
> stopped).
>
> The GE's computer screens are more user friendly
> and especially don't have that stupid maintenance
> window popping up all the time like the EMD's.
>
> The GE's have better clearance between the seat
> and control stand than the EMD's (I'm "big" and
> kill myelf trying to get into or out of the
> engineer's seat on the SD-70ACe).
>
> The GE's hold the rail better, especially in
> dynamic braking mode (don't even get me started on
> the DC SD-70M's here).
>
> If I thought a little longer I could probably come
> up with more reasons but that's it for now.
>

While I'm still an EMD man, I'm inclined to agree about better user-friendliness on the computer screens...I have to admit...I DO find the maintenance window popping up every time you go to IDLE, or, centering the reversor on the SD70ACe is unnecessary and irritating.

The HIGH IDLE. Again...I agree. EMD's have been going into "High Idle--Low Air Pressure", or, "High Idle--Cooldown Cycle" since the SD60 Series...but until the SD70ACe's...this generally lasted only a minute or two...no big deal. That trip I mentioned with the SD70ACe...it was a cold night, relatively...not freezing or anything...but I found the HIGH IDLE to be excessively long. I didn't actually time it, but, it stayed in HIGH IDLE during an entire meet with a train. I can't imagine any purpose for the locomotive to be revved up to Notch 3 speed this long...I'd think 60 to 90 seconds, tops, should be plenty long enough to go through a "cool down cycle". This is probably also wasting fuel.

Maybe at a future time, there will be a software upgrade that reduces the amount of time an SD70ACe or SD70M-2 spends racing away in HIGH IDLE. I think this is needed.

I have to agree with GE over EMD. The main comment I want to make is I believe all the lights and cheap plastic parts are requested by the railroad. We all know how the UP is. I can't say cheap because they will spend gobs of money on some things and very little on others.