Western Railroad Discussion > Why no Train Aware app?

We can see where any airplane is at any time these days via apps like “Flight Aware”. 

Why not trains?

Airlines and most railroads are both privately owned.  

Why not a “Train Aware” app?

Because you don’t need to know.

Posted from iPhone

I don’t “need to know” where every aircraft flying is located either.  

But they are easy to find. 

 

You can join the ATCS Monitoring Group that is on Yahoo and see if they have a layout available for your area.  See example.  Red = Train.

SouthWest RailCams
CA, NM, CO, TX, AZ
https://SouthWestRailCams.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/18 21:52 by RailFanAZ.

---

There isn't one because no enteprising soul has put together a business plan, got buy-in from the railroads, and begun to raise the money needed to make it work.
Also, the aviation site, which I follow because aerospace is our town's main business, is happening because the FAA mandated that all airplanes buy and install ADSB location equipment by a certain date,
to improve safety in a three-dimensional environment.

Bill Deaver
Tehachapi, CA

RailFanAZ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You can join the ATCS Monitoring Group that is on
> Yahoo and see if they have a layout available for
> your area.  See example.  Red = Train.


That’s great info! 

Thanks.  

 

RailDawg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don’t “need to know” where every aircraft
> flying is located either.  
>
> But they are easy to find. 

I guess I'm a few post too late to prevent a snarky reply.

This might sound snarky, but why not do a research on how Flight Aware actually works? By knowing the basics behind how they operate, you might come up with your own theory on why it might be impractical for railroads at the moment. Keyword: ADS-B. Aircraft so equipped transmit location data for use by air traffic control, nearby aircraft, and of course by Flight Aware themselves. It's a secondary tracking system in addition to radar and transponders.

I'm no airplane foamer, so I'll let others elaborate on ADS-B.

Off topic, but there have been heated discussions on how "newbie questions" get treated here on TO. Invest the time and go seek the answers yourselves. When you ask questions AFTER doing so, you'll be surprised at the higher quality of replies.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/18 21:57 by cchan006.

MojaveBill Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There isn't one because no enteprising soul has
> put together a business plan, got buy-in from the
> railroads, and begun to raise the money needed to
> make it work.
> Also, the aviation site, which I follow because
> aerospace is our town's main business, is
> happening because the FAA mandated that all
> airplanes buy and install ADSB location equipment
> by a certain date,
> to improve safety in a three-dimensional
> environment.


Good points Bill. 

I fly the big jets for a living and have no problem with others knowing where we’re at.  
 

cchan006 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> RailDawg Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I don’t “need to know” where every
> aircraft
> > flying is located either.  
> >
> > But they are easy to find. 
>
> I guess I'm a few post too late to prevent a
> snarky reply.
>
> This might sound snarky, but why not do a research
> on how Flight Aware actually works? By knowing the
> basics behind how they operate, you might come up
> with your own theory on why it might be
> impractical for railroads at the moment. Keyword:
> ADS-B. Aircraft so equipped transmit location data
> for use by air traffic control, nearby aircraft,
> and of course by Flight Aware themselves. It's a
> secondary tracking system in addition to radar and
> transponders.
>
> I'm no airplane foamer, so I'll let others
> elaborate on ADS-B.
>
> Off topic, but there have been heated discussions
> on how "newbie questions" get treated here on TO.
> Invest the time and go seek the answers
> yourselves. When you ask questions AFTER doing so,
> you'll be surprised at the higher quality of
> replies.


You’re right of course.  

With Google who needs Train Orders?

Back to lurking lol.  

RailDawg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You’re right of course.  
>
> With Google who needs Train Orders?
>
> Back to lurking lol. 

MojaveBill also answered the question, but he focused on "business theory" while I focused on the technolgy itself.

Here's a homework for you while you lurk. Will PTC be able to make "Train Aware" possible? There will be replies to that topic, hopefully in this thread. So let's hope you don't block yourself from learning by being defensive, but actually get credit for an interesting discussion?

PTC might make it possible but why should the public have access?

Posted from iPhone

jointauthority Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> PTC might make it possible but why should the
> public have access?

That's an open question, since the public has access on Flight Aware. Amtrak has provided train tracking info, but they both have passengers (people) actually being onboard.

There's certainly a demand for Flight Aware data in this day and age of instant gratification. Personally, I simply rely on airport/airline data to pick up friends and family, but not obsess every minute on where the flight is - that's an off topic discussion on addictive behavior. :-)

Union Pacific still provides "trace info" of cars so customers can track their shipment. Railfan over-use has led to locomotive #s being removed from public access, especially since the "toll free" number costs UP money everytime someone uses it. So that is one answer to your question, why should the public have access?

jointauthority Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> PTC might make it possible but why should the
> public have access?
>
> Posted from iPhone

Bigger question is what are the railroads afraid of? Why is a little accountability something to be so feared?

Posted from Android

Doug Wetherhold
Macungie, PA

RailDawg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MojaveBill Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > There isn't one because no enteprising soul has
> > put together a business plan, got buy-in from
> the
> > railroads, and begun to raise the money needed
> to
> > make it work.
> > Also, the aviation site, which I follow because
> > aerospace is our town's main business, is
> > happening because the FAA mandated that all
> > airplanes buy and install ADSB location
> equipment
> > by a certain date,
> > to improve safety in a three-dimensional
> > environment.
>
>
> Good points Bill. 
>
> I fly the big jets for a living and have no
> problem with others knowing where we’re at.  
>  

Even Flight Aware doesn't show everything. For instance, military flights are not shown and they all have  transponders with ADSB capability too.

I seem to recall that way back when it was still just BN and the internet was just taking off, BN did have some form of train location page on their website.  But along came the 911 event in NYC and the train location page was removed.  BN was concerned about wrong people knowing where their trains were at.  BN's Montana Branch Line dispatcher always used to give the daily train line ups for BN's Laurel Sub via radio (161.100).  That ended not much after 911.  So there may be another reason why you do not see it.

ALCO630 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bigger question is what are the railroads afraid
> of? Why is a little accountability something to be
> so feared?

At least for UP, they're afraid of losing money?

Flight Aware tracks an airplane independent of which airline it belongs to, because the data is not proprietary to a particular airline. UP, BNSF, or other railroad's tracking data is proprietary to each organization. That's a BIG DEAL. UP didn't "hide" their tracking data, so the slowness of their "railroading" was not hidden, at least to their customers.

Who's going to spend the resources to integrate all that data and put it in a single web site like "Train Aware?" Sir Richard Branson?

That's why I brought up PTC, as it's mandated to be some sort of a universal data handler for the railroads. I have my doubts that it might be useful for "Train Aware" for technical reasons, because the stupidity of it is that implementation is railroad-dependent, not universal like the airlines.

I deliberately avoided 9/11 and "security" in this discussion. For the example of BN mentioned above, they rode the paranoia wave like most other organizations 17 years ago, so I don't blame them. At least, the airlines got over the paranoia by the mere existence of Flight Aware (which makes money) who is allowed to share some of the data to the public.

RailDawg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We can see where any airplane is at any time these
> days via apps like “Flight Aware”. 
>
> Why not trains?
>

I've read through the answers. I'll take a different approach and explain why not trains.

Traffic control on railroads and in the air have some basic similarities. Both occupations involve the use of pre-trip or en route condition information. For rail, it's General Track Bulletin, Track Warrant, or similar documents (there is some variation in procedures among railroads). For air, it's NOTAM and ATIS.

Both occupations must know where the location of the traffic. Railroad controllers (generally called train dispatchers) receive the information and transmit instructions via voice radio (e.g., Track Warrant Control) http://members.trainorders.com/cimascrambler/harbor_sub_gallery/images/tw.gif, or an electronic system that represents on a schematic diagram on sections of track occupied by trains http://www.trainweb.org/southwestshorts/Sesquicentennial/images/sesqui-wes-carr-20a.jpg. The information is communicated to the dispatcher through wires, fibre optic cable, or data radio (ATCS). If the information is transmitted via wire of fibre optic cable, it is not visible. If it is transmitted by radio, it can be received and decoded like the information displayed by Flightaware.

However, there are two substantial reasons for that information, where it is transmitted by radio, to not be generally available.

• Security. Although we live in the era of Security Theater, there is still a lot more mischief that can be done if train locations are known than aircraft locations. (It seems that in the 60s and 70s, that some of the folks in the 'hood had no problem being on hand when, for example, the CNW afternoon meat run was headed for Wood Street in Chicago or the B&OCT auto job was headed to the C&EI and IC deliveries, all without the aid of train identification systems on internet)
• Difficulty of acquiring the signal: Signals from an aircraft are visible over a wide area on the ground. The signals for ATCS are relatively low power and are somewhat directional.

Using ATCS Monitor, the occupied track sections can be seen, but what is occupying them cannot. That information is located in the railroad's information system. The traffic control system receives the train information from the IS. The train does not transmit that information.

When ATC was strictly voice-oriented and when the early radar systems were used, ATCs used "shrimp boats" https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3734/12321888993_1e479692cd_b.jpg in the same manner that train dispatchers used a paper trainsheet http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/26/2695/AGOUD00Z/posters/bernard-hoffman-santa-fe-railroad-dispatcher-working-on-a-freight-train.jpg. Adding radar to ATC gave real time information of aircraft locations, but no information about what aircraft and what altitude. That still required shrimp boats, but on the screen instead of the chart: http://www.rwf2000.com/atc/gifs2012-02/PVD.jpg. The original CTC implementations were similar in that the train dispatcher kept paper records to represent the train information, with only train locations being shown on the display:https://cdn.trainorders.com/attachments/fullsize/1103000/hv_ctc.JPG.

FAA had a specific reason for the ADS-B requirement. With air traffic density approaching the maximum that the existing system can safely accommodate, They developed a system that put a lot more information directly on the controller's screen, a combination of radar and data radio: http://www.gridgit.com/postpic/2012/03/air-traffic-control-radar_514555.jpg. That information is also used by TCAS, kind of the aircraft equivalent of PTC. Not only do the ATC and Flightaware receive the ADS-B information, other aircraft do too. Railroad PTC is also based upon ground communication, although there is some use of data radio, so it will not be generally visible (effectively, the train's PTC computer acquires the railroad equivalent of NOTAM and ATIS via data radio).

TAW

ALCO630 Wrote:

>
> Bigger question is what are the railroads afraid
> of? Why is a little accountability something to be
> so feared?
>
> Posted from Android

Accountability to whom?  Railfans?  Methinks a few too many railfans overestimate their importance and/or relevance in the grand scheme of things.

Railroads are accountable to their customers, and 10 seconds with Google reveals that each of the big four provides equipment trace service to their customers.  (Back in the early 2000's UP's had a public web-based service, which I, and I'm sure plenty other railfans, abused incessantly.  It was great for keeping track of the unrepainted/unrenumbered DRGW locomotives...but I digress.)  Railroads are also accountable to their shareholders, so one could try to argue that the equipment trace should be available to them, but I expect it would end up being an awfully weak argument.  I can't think of how a shareholder's interests would be better served with the ability to track individual equipment over just getting the aggregated data that comes with each quarterly report.  Yes, I am a shareholder in more than one railroad.

I found this link with a Google search:
 
https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?9,2907094

Railfan Technology > Train tracking apps.
 
 

 

RailDawg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We can see where any airplane is at any time these
> days via apps like “Flight Aware”. 
>
> Why not trains?
>
> Airlines and most railroads are both privately
> owned.  
>
> Why not a “Train Aware” app?

The standard answer is railroads are ground transportation and move tons of flammable, combustible, and dangerous products (chemicals) that airlines do not.  There is a very fine line between who should know and who shouldn't.  


Allen