Western Railroad Discussion > Another challenge to Boeing fuselage trains?

Spirit Aerosystems, the Wichita KS based maker of fuselages for Boeing 737 aircraft has ackowledged that Boeing has begun conversations to buy Spirit. At one time, what is now Spirit was owned by Boeing, but was spun off. Currently, fuselages are manufactured in Wichita and shipped by rail to Washington state over BNSF.

The current process is cumbersome. Aircraft parts are manufactured all over the US and overseas, then shipped to Washington state, where they are assembled into a finished aircraft. It is unclear whether a merged company would assemble entire planes in Wichita, and stop the fuselage trains. Or move the fuselage fabrication business to Washington state. Or continue the current process under closer Boeing quality control. Or some other alternative.

This discussion is taking place while multiple safety agencies investigate Boeing's quality control with  787, and 737 aircraft. And several investment firms take positions in both Boeing and Spirit. AQR is almong the most recent.

Giving up on vertical integration means giving up significant control over your products. I think Boeing is getting a big bowful of woe from these choices. I hope they do reintegrate spun out divisions. 

If you have ever seen some documentaries about it, the OTHER plane manufacturer in Europe that makes A models ships parts from all over Europe via highway, train, barge and it seems to work there.
JB

3rdswitch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you have ever seen some documentaries about it,
> the OTHER plane manufacturer in Europe that makes
> A models ships parts from all over Europe via
> highway, train, barge and it seems to work there.
> JB

Yes.  Spirit is also a supplier to Airbus A320 and other product lines.   Whether that would continue under direct Boeing ownership is unclear.  Or whether re-acquiring Spirit would violate anti-trust rules is unclear.

About 10-15 years ago I was in a small group touring the Boeing C-17 plant in Long Beach, CA. It was noted that various sections and components in the aircraft were sourced at multiple locations in the US. Our host told us this was deliberate. The intent was to spread business across numerous Congressional districts, in essence giving as many elected officials “some skin in the game” as possible.

Not sure if this same principle applies with civilian aircraft but, it wouldn’t surprise me.

CW

Posted from iPhone

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 3rdswitch Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > If you have ever seen some documentaries about
> it,
> > the OTHER plane manufacturer in Europe that
> makes
> > A models ships parts from all over Europe via
> > highway, train, barge and it seems to work
> there.
> > JB
>
> Yes.  Spirit is also a supplier to Airbus A320
> and other product lines.   Whether that would
> continue under direct Boeing ownership is
> unclear.  Or whether re-acquiring Spirit would
> violate anti-trust rules is unclear.

The Sherman anti trust statutes were implemented to keep manufacturers, and businesss from collusion in prices and competition.  There is probably no part of a Boeing repurchase of its main 737 fuselage supplier, Spirit, in Wichita that would trigger anti-trust action mostly because Spirit and Boeing do not "compete".  It's important to remember that facility was a part of Boeing since the construction build up to produce military strategic bombers beginning as far back as 1927.  It was the main Boeing production facility for B-29s starting in the early 1940s, and became Spirit Aviation only relatively recently.

I haven't been able to ascertain where the P-8 fuselages are built.
Does anyone in the TO braintrust have any info?
TIA!
...Lorenzo

567Chant Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I haven't been able to ascertain where the P-8
> fuselages are built.
> Does anyone in the TO braintrust have any info?

In Wichita

Posted from iPhone

The only major issue with boeing repurchasing spirit is that spirits northern Ireland plant makes a number of major components for the airbus a220.
The NI plant was formerly a bombardier plant which spirit purchased in mid 2010s

Production of the 737 fuselage would likely stay in Kansas as 1) it would result in massive down time if they moved the factory and 2) all of the employee are highly skilled and probably would not want to move to Seattle
And
3) the market life of the 737 is very rapidly reaching its end

Sooner rather than later,boeing will begin the development of its clean slate NG single aisle aircraft that will replace the 737 max. Depending on the design of the NG aircraft's fuselages cross section, it may be too wide to transport by train ( it may have a more circular cross section than the max thus its likely it cannot be shipped by rail. A wider fuselage, like the 787, is probably would be shipped by air using dreamlifters )
It's probable that fuselage, final assembly and possibly wing production are will be colocated in a new manufacturing/final assembly facility. The manufacturing process and technology used to build that type of carbon fibre based air craft is a generational leap from the technology being used to build the 737 max. Don't be surprised if it's located in a lower cost state... ( boeing being boeing it will never learn from its mistakes and will look to minimize costs....)
boeing motto ....Walmart quality in the skys above you....

Ps. In answer to the question above... the P8 and e7 are assembled in Renton and the fuselage is built in kansas. For installation of the speciality military components, interiors etc the aircraft are flown to another boeing facility.
These aircraft are based on the 737 800 not the max.

Posted from Android



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/24 21:02 by dxm332.

dxm332 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> 3) the market life of the 737 is very rapidly
> reaching its end
>
> Sooner rather than later,boeing will begin the
> development of its clean slate NG single aisle
> aircraft that will replace the 737 max.

One has to wonder what the state of Boeing would be in today, had political interference in 2011 not forced the cancellation (not shelving, but cancellation) of the Y1 project and instead pushed through a redesigned version of the 737 that never went through a full complete proper qualification and certification process, and became the problematic air-frame called the 737 MAX.

I've seen the P-8 bodies on trains in western Washington, they don't have the windows that the passenger bodies have

I doubt you will see anything move to Washington as Boeing has been attempting to leave the state for years now. But it's the cost cutting BS that got Boeing into trouble in the first place. When the wall street types took over the corporate management from the in-house legacy management, they lost the institutional knowledge that management had to avoid these kinds of issues. Spinning off the various plants and moving the Headquartser from Seattle to Chicago then Arlington Virgina has been a disaster in the making.

Ted Curphey
Ontario, OR

Boeing has gotten themselves in a real jam....financially

They currently have two versions of 737 max (7+9) along the 777X that are encountering massive delays/technical issues in certication..... billions tied up in the deveopment of aircraft... and the FAA has restricted production of the 737 max to 38 units a month....
And the Faa has ordered boeing to make changes to the 787 and its production line that have dramatically slowed its deliveries..

Due to the failure to deliver aircraft customers are demanding massive compensation.... $$$$$$

Cost cutting... failure to deliver a quality product .... angry customers.... a fixation on meeting profit margin demanded by Wall Street...
Does that remind you of... PSR....

Posted from Android

SouthWest Air announced a reduction in their outlook due to problems with Boeing updates and deliveries.

It is a mess, for sure.

Posted from Android

dxm332 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Boeing has gotten themselves in a real
> jam....financially
>
> They currently have two versions of 737 max (7+9)
> along the 777X that are encountering massive
> delays/technical issues in certication.....
> billions tied up in the deveopment of aircraft...
> and the FAA has restricted production of the 737
> max to 38 units a month....
> And the Faa has ordered boeing to make changes to
> the 787 and its production line that have
> dramatically slowed its deliveries..
>
> Due to the failure to deliver aircraft customers
> are demanding massive compensation.... $$$$$$
>
> Cost cutting... failure to deliver a quality
> product .... angry customers.... a fixation on
> meeting profit margin demanded by Wall Street...
> Does that remind you of... PSR....

EXACTLY!!!  John Oliver, who had that good episode on today's PSR railroads, has another good episode recently on Boeing.  Watched it last night, it was both funny, but also very sad (and scary if you fly).  In my opinion, this is just another good example how once proud US companies who built their reputations on quality, invention, and service are being gutted all in the name of greed for "Wall Street".  It's no wonder the US is loosing its competitive edge world wide.
 

longliveSP Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> dxm332 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > 3) the market life of the 737 is very rapidly
> > reaching its end
> >
> > Sooner rather than later,boeing will begin the
> > development of its clean slate NG single aisle
> > aircraft that will replace the 737 max.
>
> One has to wonder what the state of Boeing would
> be in today, had political interference in 2011
> not forced the cancellation (not shelving, but
> cancellation) of the Y1 project and instead pushed
> through a redesigned version of the 737 that never
> went through a full complete proper qualification
> and certification process, and became the
> problematic air-frame called the 737 MAX.

Umm, I worked at Boeing, and the reason for Y1 cancellation was all $ driven. The A320neo was selling strongly and developing a new aircraft would reduce profits. Boeing leadership decided to squeeze the lemon even harder, and has put the company in a pickle long term. B

doge_of_pocopson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> longliveSP Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > dxm332 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> >
> > > 3) the market life of the 737 is very rapidly
> > > reaching its end
> > >
> > > Sooner rather than later,boeing will begin
> the
> > > development of its clean slate NG single
> aisle
> > > aircraft that will replace the 737 max.
> >
> > One has to wonder what the state of Boeing
> would
> > be in today, had political interference in 2011
> > not forced the cancellation (not shelving, but
> > cancellation) of the Y1 project and instead
> pushed
> > through a redesigned version of the 737 that
> never
> > went through a full complete proper
> qualification
> > and certification process, and became the
> > problematic air-frame called the 737 MAX.
>
> Umm, I worked at Boeing, and the reason for Y1
> cancellation was all $ driven. The A320neo was
> selling strongly and developing a new aircraft
> would reduce profits. Boeing leadership decided to
> squeeze the lemon even harder, and has put the
> company in a pickle long term. B

Facts of the US Federal Government political interference is publicly available. When American Airlines stated their intention to sign a purchase contract for Airbus aircraft, federal politics intervened to push Boeing to drop the Y1 and create the 737MAX boondoggle to win the AA contract. Dispite senior Boeing engineers pleading with Boeing executives NOT TO DO THAT!

Boeing's fall from grace seems to have begun after they "merged" with McDonnell-Douglas in 1997. Articles and at least one book describe the Mac-Dac management thugocracy having subsumed the Boeing technocrats, resulting in the corporate debacle we see today. Reminiscent of how the UP-MoP merger ended up with the MoP people on top and running the company. Into the ground.
GK 

TheNavigator Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Boeing's fall from grace seems to have begun after
> they "merged" with McDonnell-Douglas in 1997.
> Articles and at least one book describe the
> Mac-Dac management thugocracy having subsumed the
> Boeing technocrats, resulting in the corporate
> debacle we see today. Reminiscent of how the
> UP-MoP merger ended up with the MoP people on top
> and running the company. Into the ground.
> GK 

I remember reading someone's take on that as being "McDonnel Douglas bought Boeing with Boeing's money".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/12/24 18:17 by NYC_L4a.

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