Western Railroad Discussion > Abo Canyon set to be DESTROYED!

Sorry for the dramatic subject line, but that's what's on tap for
Abo Canyon according to the attached photos.

Before I start, this is a subjective assessment of the impact
of BNSF's current DT plan for Abo. Spare me your takes about how
they're in business to make a profit and not to entertain me.

Adding a second track in my mind seemed fairly innocuous until I
saw the information posted at http://www.abocanyon.com. Thanks to Jim55
for his recent post entitled "Old BNSF Transcon notes" for the heads-up.

In essence, the old ROW will be abandoned, and the BNSF intends to blast
a very wide, much straightened-out ROW through the canyon. There will be
huge piles of the blasted out material left behind. The environmental impact,
as well as the visual impact, will be quite dire.

What to do? Lend your support to the Abo Canyon area residents and
land owners that want BNSF to modify their plan so as to not destroy
the wildlife and the vistas that are truly marvelous.

Check out http://www.abocanyon.com and click on "view the canyon" for the full
picture, and how you can help them preserve one of the most beautiful areas
I've been priveleged to visit.

Last but not least, get your pictures now.....

Picture 1 shows the east end of the canyon.

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Near the West end of the canyon...

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The West end...

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Texbob and all tuned in,

Nothing personal.

I can't climb on that band wagon of yours. I am sick and tired of environmentalist controlling my life. I can't build or drive without some environmental type, tree hugging, ground kissing, "Sierra" type telling me what kind of exhaust or engine I need in my car or type and size of shed for storage, without someone telling me where I can or cannot build it and how big or small it should be.

I'l spare you all the buiness profit and so on. However, after looking at your map pictures I don't see Abo Canyon being "Destroyed" as in totally wiped out. What I do see is tracks coming out of the canyon to by-pass the really pretty spots.

Sheep they will keep coming back. They must like it there now. Probably enjoy the vibrations and noise those trains make.

If you are really concerned then hitch your wagon to a "Sierra" type group and threaten to sue BNSF for twice the price to construct the by-pass. Then you can turn this into a profitable thing for yourself. Be sure to advise the "Sierra Types", that you want a 50% cut of the monies they recieve from BNSF. Now you have a self serving purpose and you stand to gain in a profitable fashion.

Just my take. You won't find any sympathy in this camp.

RickH

Well, that breaks the rules on how to win and influence friends.

There are thousands and thousands of canyons like these all across the west, complete with the bighorn sheep and old pioneer trails. So a company wants to straighten one of many thousands of canyons to relieve a bottleneck and greatly ease the flow of commerce across the nation. And easing the flow of commerce means reduced cost, which in turn leads to more economic development in the US. If it wasn't for the fact that a busy railroad ran through Abo, virtually no one on this board would know it exsisted. It would be just another one of those many thousand canyons spread across the western US and Canada that go largely unoticed. The truth is this canyon holds no special title in a natural world, it's only claim to fame is man made! To try to stop BNSF from fixing it's bottleneck is Nimbyisim at it's worst. I say more power to the BNSF!

Ted Curphey
funnelfan@yahoo.com

Ted...

I totally agree. I love Abo, and it will still be awesome to see. Who says it will still not be a beautiful place to shot trains. More power to them.

Grady

We have gone from a laissez faire approach to the environment that resulted in some real environmental tragedies, to the other extreme. Now environmental concerns often choke our economy. Like so many things in our society these days, the process is controlled by lawyers who have become the primary beneficiaries of the complex processes. The only positive is there IS a process, and the pros and cons will be heard. And at great cost some kind of maybe reasonable compromise will be reached. I wonder how many starving people in the world those resources could feed if better used.

The maps show changes that don't look a whole lot different than a lot of freeway construction. Change is a bitch, but more efficient transportation has a value as does preserving some mountain goats. If only the process of finding the proper balance was more effient and perhaps more rational than subsidizing an army of lawyers.

If you're worried about the huge pile of rock debris, haul it to Tehachipi loop and eliminate some of the curves there. I personally don't think moving rocks to better the railroad is going to hurt nature. Nature has always readjusted before.

Picture 1 reminds me a little of the pre-planning drawings the Santa Fe presented to the forest service when they were revamping Summit in Cajon Pass. Many of the same issues were brought up during the construction of the SP over Cajon as well as the Santa Fe re-alignment at Summit. Santa Fe came in and cleaned up the old right of way at summit so well that you can barely tell it even existed. I suspect that a similar plan is in the works to smooth out the old Abo Canyon grade so that it will return to a natural look.

The only complaint that the sheep are going to have is that the debris is not going to be piled high enough to suit them. The sheep prefer a rugged terrain with high pitches, and I suspect what debris remains will be required to blend in and be contoured with the surrouding landscape. The deep cuts will be the only true scar on the land, much like what we see at Summit in Cajon.

Increasing the capacity/fluidity of the southern transcon which is a primary route for intermodal traffic; should bring about the positive effect of reducing the number of trucks on the highway. I think we all agree trains are more energy efficient? BUILD IT!

I already love the sheep, but this project needs to be done, although it is too bad that some traffic couldn't be rerouted over Raton...

RickH Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I can't climb on that band wagon of yours. I am
> sick and tired of environmentalist controlling my
> life. I can't build or drive without some
> environmental type, tree hugging, ground kissing,
> "Sierra" type telling me

Right On!

John Maky
spdonner1@sbcglobal.net

I just followed over to the website indicated and read the reasoning for calling for more reviews and documentation prior to construction of the double track.

BNSF undoubtedly had to go through countless review processes and approvals just to get this far. No matter what state your project is in there are federal guidelines and requirements that have to be met before any project of this magnitude is approved. There will be requirements to bring all surrounding ground that has been affected by the new construction back to natural state, including foliage, stream runoff will be a high priority of the railroad and federal agencies, and you can be assured BNSF is not going to build a right of way that is going to be flooded out the first year because of their lack of engineering.

Since the time of the Cajon Pass work several years ago many environmental laws have been passed regarding the recapturing of the land back to a natural state wherever possible and within a short time after the project is completed you will be surprised how the BNSF will blend in with the canyon.

I think we should (as railfans) demand several concessions! There needs to be a campground built, with full hookups, right in the middle of canyon. It needs to be built in such a place as to have views of both ends of the canyons. Power can come from wind turbines up on top of the hill, or solar panels, so as not to introduce more "pole lines" and remain "environmentally friendly". ATCS needs to be installed so from campsite we can monitor track movements with our laptops whereby we'll know when to get out of our easy chair for that "perfect picture". We need to insist that the "old trackage" be maintained and available for railbiking/hiking, and a concessionaire hired to rent such vehicles. Oh, and it would be nice if access roads were built to "observation points" where trackside viewing would be allowed (and encouraged, that way BNSF wouldn't have to hire rent-a-cops to observe the trains).

Just my wish list....

And as for BigHorns, catch 'em in the Carriso Gorge!

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Add my name to the list of people who are on BNSF's side. Abo Canyon, which I have never visited but I know is a beautiful area, has always been a bottleneck and it's only getting worse. I see absolutely nothing wrong with BNSF wanting to add a new alignment through the canyon to improve the flow of traffic. And once again the environmentalist faction is getting into high gear to stop what they see as an attack on the environment only because some "big business" wants to do something.

I'm almost positive all those "endangered species" were there way before the Santa Fe built the original line through the canyon and they survived. They might be inconvenienced during construction but I'm sure in nothing flat they'll never know the difference and will be just as plentiful as they are now. And once completed the original right of way will probably revert back to "wilderness" and give the "endangered species" new land to roam and new cuts to climb and build homes in. And if nothing else it could become a nature trail, something to keep the environmentalists happy.

It is good there are laws to protect the environment but these low life environmentalist groups take them to extremes and want no progress at all screaming how we'll ruin the world for all. These groups have done some good but they go way over the line and there are lots of lawyers out there just waiting to tangle with big business so they can make a quick killing and line their pockets with lots of money. I doubt most of these lawyers really care about the environment unless they're being paid to care.

It's funny because these environmentalists always scream how everything big business does is going to change the world and wipe out more species of animals. Recently there was a discussion about the Cantara spill and the environmentalist's screams the SP killed the Sacramento River. In short order the fish that were killed were replaced with plenty of new fish. Up here in Oregon the environmentalists have all but killed the lumber industry scraming the Spotted Owl needs "old growth" to survive and yet I know of cases where these Spotted Owls live in Christmas tree farms (certainly not "old growth") adn they continue to survive. The bottom line is that these environmentalists simply want the world to return to humans living in caves and everything they see that American industry wants to to to improve their operations is an attack on the environment.

OK, I said more than I wanted but once again too much caffeine took over and made me write more than I should have.

RickH Wrote:

> I am sick and tired of environmentalist controlling my
> life. I can't build or drive without some
> environmental type, tree hugging, ground kissing,
> "Sierra" type telling me what kind of exhaust or
> engine I need in my car or type and size of shed
> for storage, without someone telling me where I
> can or cannot build it and how big or small it
> should be.

Sorry to hear that you're sick and tired... Funny, I don't seem to
have any "ground kissers" controlling my life. I've never even seen
a ground kisser. These might be related to the "straw man" that folks
sometimes try to interject into a discussion so as to be able to attack
and destroy said straw man as compared to addressing the point.

Regarding storage sheds, my advice is ask your wife first, then check
with the zoning authorities, and you should be good to go....

Your main point is you'd like some ability to control your destiny.
That's fair enough. That's exactly what the Abo Canyon residents and
land owners would like.

Those of you that accuse these folks of NIMBYism haven't thought this
through. Remember, BNSF does not own the canyon, only their ROW.
BNSF intends to exert eminent domain to force people to sell their land.

There's just no comparison between this and somebody that buys a house next
to a mainline then wants to whine about train noise.

If you really care about property rights, you ought to care about
folks that have owned property in the canyon for generations and now
BNSF wants to force you to sell part of your land and forever alter
the value of the rest of your land.

> If you are really concerned then hitch your wagon
> to a "Sierra" type group and threaten to sue BNSF
> for twice the price to construct the by-pass.
> Then you can turn this into a profitable thing for
> yourself. Be sure to advise the "Sierra Types",
> that you want a 50% cut of the monies they recieve
> from BNSF. Now you have a self serving purpose
> and you stand to gain in a profitable fashion.

I make it a point to not accept legal, business,or financial advice
from folks that can't figure out how to erect a storage shed.

tmengineman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think we should (as railfans) demand several
> concessions! There needs to be a campground built,
> with full hookups, right in the middle of canyon.
> It needs to be built in such a place as to have
> views of both ends of the canyons. Power can come
> from wind turbines up on top of the hill, or solar
> panels, so as not to introduce more "pole lines"
> and remain "environmentally friendly". ATCS needs
> to be installed so from campsite we can monitor
> track movements with our laptops whereby we'll
> know when to get out of our easy chair for that
> "perfect picture". We need to insist that the "old
> trackage" be maintained and available for
> railbiking/hiking, and a concessionaire hired to
> rent such vehicles. Oh, and it would be nice if
> access roads were built to "observation points"
> where trackside viewing would be allowed (and
> encouraged, that way BNSF wouldn't have to hire
> rent-a-cops to observe the trains).

Give me the petition to sign right now!

Did anyone notice, that the website says an increase in traffic "threefold"? Are they really gonna run 300 trains a day on 2 tracks? I take it the ROW includes additional room for 3 tracks? (You can't really tell from the 3D models given).

Anyone concerned about the environment can rest assured that in today's construction environment, care is to taken to maintain everything from game control (big horn sheep) all the way down to silt and erosion control from stormwater during construction. ESPECIALLY if a government entity (COE), if it is the same in NM as here in NC, either FEMA or local equivalent will be involved with all waterways impacted.

Not saying that will completley satisfy everyone, but it will ensure that the environment is not ruined.

Before you guys totally hijack the thread with the rote
"tree-hugger" and "evil lawyer" takes, no one is suggesting
that BNSF not add the second track through the canyon.

The point is that BNSF wants to run an interstate freeway
type of corridor through the canyon. The residents and land
owners feel that this would destroy the canyon's beauty, and
the value of their land. They want the BNSF to expand their
current ROW to accommodate the second main versus the current plan.

It's not a NIMBY issue-it's a property rights issue. The canyon
has been owned by the same families for generations, much before
1908 when the ATSF arrived.

No comparison between this and me buying a house next to the tracks,
then me demanding the RR stop running trains at night.

TexBob Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry to hear that you're sick and tired... Funny,
> I don't seem to
> have any "ground kissers" controlling my life.

Gee;
In the last 48 hours, I had to get my car smogged; costing $48 - a necessity that the ENVIROMENTALISTS started. I purchased four new tires for my truck - each requiring a $5 ENVIROMENTAL disposal fee. I cannot railfan certain areas out in the nearby desert because there are some ENVIROMENTAL concerns. I cannot even light a fire in my own fireplace w/out calling the local air polution control district to see if the ENVIROMENTALISTS say it's okay.

Oh; I forgot, the local news says it's a "spare the air day" so the ENVIROMENTALISTS say I shouldn't drive.

No, the enviromentalists have no control. Get a grip on reality.

John Maky
spdonner1@sbcglobal.net