Western Railroad Discussion > Silencing urban train horns might be a trade-off

The best part is the comments left for this artical. I had to register to sfgate to respond to one paticular Berkeley headcase whos comments were so far removed from reality it was astonishing. You can view those comments here: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article/comments/view?f=/c/a/2007/07/22/BAGU3R4SOA1.DTL

RICHMOND
Silencing urban train horns might be trade-off: safety for sleep
Carolyn Jones, Chronicle Staff Writer

Sunday, July 22, 2007

Louis Hagler, a retired physician, went years without a decent night's sleep. The culprit? Train horns blasting at up to 120 decibels just 100 yards from his house in Richmond.

"It became a problem of monumental proportions," he said last week. "When you're not getting one, a good night's sleep is worth a million bucks. Then a group of us started complaining vociferously and consistently and we got it done. We silenced the train horns."

Richmond is one of the first cities in the U.S. to take advantage of a new federal law that allows cities to ban train horns. By installing flashing lights, extra barriers and other safety measures at train crossings, a city can order train engineers not to blast their horns as they rumble through residential neighborhoods.

Richmond likes quiet zones so much that city now has four of them. Campbell has two. San Jose has quiet zones along the light-rail tracks. Berkeley, Emeryville, Novato and other Bay Area cities now want their own train-horn-free zones.

But at what price is a good night's sleep? The California Public Utilities Commission and other groups say the risk to public safety is too high. With rail traffic at an all-time high and urban gentrification bringing thousands more people to live, work and play near train tracks, the risk of fatalities could soar, said PUC spokeswoman Susan Carothers.

"We definitely have safety concerns when horns are silenced," she said. "We're not in favor of quiet zones. The PUC sees horns as a safety measure, and that becomes increasingly important as we become more and more populated in the Bay Area."

Berkeley had a first-hand experience with rail tragedy June 19 when a popular community activist, Lucie Buchbinder, was killed by an Amtrak train she apparently did not hear while crossing the tracks at Jack London Square in Oakland. Buchbinder, 83, a founder of the Bread Project in Berkeley, was hit when she walked behind a slow-moving freight train that had just passed, not aware of the Amtrak train traveling in the opposite direction with its horn sounding.

Though not related to the train-horn issue, her death underscored crossing dangers as the city prepared to move forward with its quiet zone plans. On Tuesday, the City Council unanimously approved the first step in creating at least four quiet zones at vehicle crossings. The city will start accepting bids from consultants to upgrade the safety apparatus where Hearst Avenue, and Virginia, Cedar and Addison streets cross the train tracks near Interstate 80.

The upgrades will cost between $50,000 and $70,000 per intersection, although the city will try to pay for it with grant money, said Councilwoman Linda Maio, who is sponsoring the plan.

"Clearly, if we found we were really putting people at risk, we'd have to rethink it," she said. "But right now, a lot of people seem to want this."

The quiet zone law went into effect only last year, so it's too early to compare accident rates between quiet zones and those where engineers sound horns. But in areas that adopted local quiet zones before the federal law passed, the collision rate increased 80 percent on average, said Warren Flatau, spokesman for the Federal Railroad Administration, noting that not all the quiet crossings were equipped with the compensating safety features required under the "quiet zones" law. In one Florida study, there was a 195 percent increase in collisions at quiet zones, he said.

California already leads the United States in pedestrian deaths along train tracks. In 2006, 91 pedestrians were killed by trains, accounting for almost a fifth of the nationwide total. California ranks third in the nation for vehicle collisions with trains, with 166 accidents in 2006.

"California has a lot of trains and a lot of people. Safety obviously has to be a major priority," said Marmie Edwards, vice president of communications at Operation Lifesaver, a nonprofit group that advocates for rail safety. "It's only going to be a bigger and bigger issue."

Even without sounding their horns, trains are quieter than they used to be, Edwards said. Tracks in California are now all welded, as opposed to bolted, so trains no longer make their familiar "clickety clack" sound. As a result, it's harder to judge how far away and how fast a train is moving.

"When the train is quieter, people think it's further away than it really is, and think, 'I can slip across here, no problem.' " she said. "Well, the average train is 12 million pounds. It's not the kind of thing you want to get in front of, even when it's only moving at 15 mph. It can be very messy."

The train engineers' union hasn't come out against quiet zones, but they're not thrilled with them, either.

"It's a constant fear for engineers that they'll be involved in a collision," said John Bentley, spokesman for the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and Trainmen. "Being a train engineer is one of the most stressful jobs out there. Our concern is that the quiet zone crossings provide a high enough level of safety."

Some engineers are so concerned about safety they continue to sound their horns even in quiet zones. In Richmond, quiet zone violations have been the only complaint from the public, said the city's administrative chief, Janet Schneider.

"Our residents are thrilled with quiet zones. They're ecstatic," she said. "We've had no collisions or other safety problems at all."

E-mail Carolyn Jones at carolynjones@sfchronicle.com.

This article appeared on page B - 1 of the San Francisco Chronicle

yeah, I was out of town last week for the pre-vote city council meeting over this. Wish I had been there to talk some sense into these West Berkeley morons that have chosen to live by the tracks and lose sleep over train horns that have been in use at this location for over 100 years (well steam whistles count too). I think we need some of our UP and Amtrak Cal-p engineers who have been through multiple vehicle collisions and/or pedestrian fatalities to share a few of their personal stories in order knock some sense into both the super dumb public and Berkeley City Council. Any volunteers?

AFAIK, nothing in the quiet zone regs prohibits the blowing of the horn in an emergency. There is really no reason to blow for every xing "just because we've done it for a hundred years". We are now an urban people, and adaption to that reality is needed.

Keep it up, Ryan. Simply put, as I told a local Bakersfield TV station (KBAK-29) last December, the sounding of the horn is your only certain notice that a train is approaching your immediate location... gates or not.

Take Care, Stay Safe, Have Fun!

Larry

If you don't like it, MOVE!!! Sick and tired of NIMBY's.

I felt compelled to add my two cents to the conversation as well. It's amazing that some people actually think that locomotive engineers are a bunch of sick, twisted creatures who delight in annoying, waking, and generally ruining the lives of people who live near the tracks. I live under the flight-path into San Jose Mineta International Airport and I certainly don't think that airline pilots are a bunch of subhuman sadists just because they rev up their jet engines and wake me up sometimes. I chose to live here, I knew about the airport, and it doesn't bother me.

Problem is, the whole country is becoming NIMBY country. Can't even spit on the sidewalk without a Nimby filing a lawsuit. Of course, when their ox is gored, becomes a national disgrace.

Bob

The way I see it is this...RR's have been here for a LONG time, and id be willing to bet that the tracks that carry the trains that there moronic people are complaining about were there long before they moved to the neighborhood. If you don't like the noise, don't live by the rails. Trains are loud, they always have been. As far as I'm concerned, its their own fault.

Ryan
Galesburg, IL

I am all for silencing the horns. All my horn does is tell the moron that goes around the crossing gate that he or she is about to die.
The other 99.9999999% of sane people stop at the gates and lights when they are activated as they should.

And how many mains are running through these crossings, 2 or 3 or perhaps 4? What is the distance between each crossing. Whats the track speeds? How many are going to get smashed when they run around the arms, or just break them off? How many are going to be like that gal in Jack London? All because they "didn't hear a horn". And is Emeryville going to do the same thing? How about Oakland and the other points south on the Niles and the Coast Subs?

I thought there was a Regional Transportation agency in the Bay Area. I know that just prior to when we moved from Livermore, Pleasanton was trying to restrict traffic from 680 and 580 from passing through town and ended up having to back off some on that. I wonder if this "Quite Zone" would have to get the traffic agency approval for their "matching funds", ie: we're not paying for it, everyone else is.

Be safe,
Chief409

The hottest place to live in Portland, Oregon is the Pearl District. It is the old NW warehouse district, and many of it's new towers are on on the former SP&S Hoyt Street Yard property. There is a 15 story tower sitting on the site of the old 9th Street Roundhouse. You wouldn't recognize it as a former RR yard if you didn't know the history.

I read an article in the last year about a group of Condo owners who wanted a "quiet Zone" as they were annoyed by the train horns during the night. UP runs a number of trains to and from Lake Yard during the night.

There was an interesting twist though. There was another group of Condo owners who LIKED the sound of the train horns and were fighting with the 'quiet zone" crowd! You just can't win.

Here's a couple of photos taken off the Fremont Bridge showing the development.

Photo 2 has reference to what used to be on the site.

Photos taken in November 2002.

Nomosantafe
Fort Worth, Texas
"Where the West Begins"

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The guy who thinks it’s a government conspiracy is either a great satirist or indicative of the thinking in the Peoples Republic of Berzerkly. The thing I want to know, and what no one seems to ever cover when they write about these zones, is how do the proponents feel when someone they know or a family member is involved in an accident? The law of averages alone suggests there must be at least one or more of these instances in the country. I’ll bet those folks could give the most proficient “flip-flopping” politician in DC a run for their money in the aftermath.
Solution, all locomotive horns must by law be something akin to the melodic Nathan five chimes that graced the SP Trainmasters and E’s or a WP switcher. Then anybody who complained would be written off as crazy and as a society we could move on to more pressing issues—like Paris Hilton’s next jail term.

And since when did the freights start running 80 & 90mph in San Mateo? I want to see that! Where do people get these screwed-up ideas about railroads?
—Mac

> Some engineers are so concerned about safety they
> continue to sound their horns even in quiet zones.
> In Richmond, quiet zone violations have been the
> only complaint from the public, said the city's
> administrative chief, Janet Schneider.
>
> "Our residents are thrilled with quiet zones.
> They're ecstatic," she said. "We've had no
> collisions or other safety problems at all."
>
> E-mail Carolyn Jones at
> carolynjones@sfchronicle.com.
>
> This article appeared on page B - 1 of the San
> Francisco Chronicle

That is actually not true. BNSF struck a car at the Marina Bay Parkway crossing back in June, only weeks after the quiet zone went into effect. Sounding the horn might not have helped this fellow however - he apparently passed a car that was already stopped at the crossing, broke through the gates, and was promptly broadsided by a Dash 9.

The City of Richmond has a lin on it's website that allows residents to lodge complaints for alleged "quiet zone violations". A copy of the complaint goes to Richmond Pacific, BNSF, and the City Attorney's office. Some of the comments are quite comical - calling the engineers sadistic and twisted, thinking that they actually enjoy sounding the horn in the wee hours of the morning just to wake everyone up. Makes for some humorous email reading if the day is going bad...

SW1200

While I am firmly on the side of NO quiet zones,there is one engineer
( it seems ) that does enjoy extended periods of horn blowing esp. late at night /early morning here on the Front Range Sub ( northern Colo ). Two places in Wellington and the current one I'm renting in south Fort Collins
having given enough evidence to support my theory. Kind of like " guess who is on duty tonight." He must have the " If I'm awake, your a$$ is going to awake too."

MacBeau Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The
> thing I want to know, and what no one seems to
> ever cover when they write about these zones, is
> how do the proponents feel when someone they know
> or a family member is involved in an accident? The
> law of averages alones suggests there must be at
> least one or more of these instances in the
> country.

The law of averages caught up with an "anti-helment" motorcycle protester a few years ago. He was riding without a helment, had an accident, died of head injuries.

It'll happen somewhere.

Qlives Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> While I am firmly on the side of NO quiet
> zones,there is one engineer
> ( it seems ) that does enjoy extended periods of
> horn blowing esp. late at night /early morning
> here on the Front Range Sub ( northern Colo ). Two
> places in Wellington and the current one I'm
> renting in south Fort Collins
> having given enough evidence to support my theory.
> Kind of like " guess who is on duty tonight." He
> must have the " If I'm awake, your a$$ is going to
> awake too."

And on the Coast Sub here in Gilroy, Ca, there is an engineer who does the exact opposite. When he comes through town at night, he does sound the horn, but in very short toots.

Bahahaha, like the one about turning BART into a freight RR.
I'll vote for grade separations anyday, but somebody will still take the short cut along the tracks. Or maybe they should have built them when they built all those new houses, or expanded the Port, maybe we'll get to it someday.

fnm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The best part is the comments left for this
> artical. I had to register to sfgate to respond to
> one paticular Berkeley headcase whos comments were
> so far removed from reality it was astonishing.
> You can view those comments here:
> http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article/comments/view?f=
> /c/a/2007/07/22/BAGU3R4SOA1.DTL
>

All this discussion is based on a pretty soft knowledge base. While sounds of trains don't disturb me, I just abut went crazy while living in San Jose years ago. The airport grew by leaps and bounds and our quiet neighborhood was really impacted. Similarly, I once lived on a busy 4 lane street, with traffic noise far worse than any railroad I've ever lived next to. I must admit that recently while staying in Winslow, Arizona, at the La Posada Hotel, the noise of all the BNSF trains coming and going (about every 10 minutes!) did keep me from sleeping. I stayed in the Carole Lombard room, about as close as possible to the tracks, by choice! Anyway, here's my point. In a few years enough data will exist to make a rational comparison of lots of horn use and the new gates, lights, etc. I suspect that the new crossing systems are going to win out.

"" Novato and other Bay Area cities now want their own train-horn-free zones. ""

Ummm...I don't think Novato has to worry for a spell....

Amtkrd4man Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "" Novato and other Bay Area cities now want their
> own train-horn-free zones. ""
>
> Ummm...I don't think Novato has to worry for a
> spell....


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