Western Railroad Discussion > Question about sparks coming out of locomotive exhaust

Question for the EMD gurus: A few weeks ago when I got off a Metra train pulled by an F40PHM I noticed that the locomotive had sparks shooting out of its exhaust stack about ten or fifteen feet above the locomotive. It wasn't an extremely large amount but enough to make one non-railfan passenger ask another “is it supposed to be doing that?” What could cause a turbocharged 645 engine to do spark like that?
Thanks in advance.

Been sitting a while.... carbon build up

Almost any locomotive will build up carbon if it sits for ahwile... I taught an Operation Lifesaver class in Grand Junction, CO, last November and heard a funny story from an engineer who works east from Grand Junction to Bond. He told a group of us that if you close the throttle a couple of notches on a GE unit for about 10 - 20 seconds, and then open it up again, you can get flames out of the stack that are maybe 5 - 15 feet high off the top of the unit. I'd heard that before but what he added was that if you do that going down through Glenwood Canyon in the dark, it was funny to watch the headlights of the cars across the river on I-70 do 'funny things' when they see the flames... He also said it would light the canyon up pretty good, too!

I won't say if he worked for the BNSF or UP to protect the guilty.

Exactly what others have indicated about carbon build up.

Caltrain has two GP9's of former Souther Pacific heritage, worked a work extra one night with just one unit. We had a decent sized train of ballast, about 2,000 tons of it and that ole' 567 was working it's heart out blowing out a steady amount of sparks for several miles. Running long hood forward I had to keep my window shut so the sparks and chunks of carbon didn't hit my clothing or come into the cab, would have made a heck of a photo :)

Security Officer at the land development at the east end of San Tim Canyon and I put out a brush fire one afternoon
started by the El Centro local power, a GP-9, that was the fifth unit in consist and running. Those carbon chunks are
both very hot and very long burning.

Many years ago a southbound commute (now CalTrain) SP Geep lost its horn around Brisbane. NOT GOOD as the crossing gates and signals at many stations were sound-actuated - when a train came in and stopped, after 30 seconds the crossing gates at the end of the station lifted. When leaving, blowing the horn actuated the gates and off you went. (I witnesses a really low flying Navy P3 on final approach to NAS Moffett trigger the gates at Sunnyvale; wonder how many times THAT happened?)

The engineer had no choice but to turn onthe bell, set the transition to center (neutral) and rip 'er open to Run 8, declaring, "Howdy Do! Coming Through!!" and then run down to idle, notch it out SLOWLY and pray nobody wanted to play chicken. Made it down to San Jose without any major issues (mid-day train) but said 'every bit of carbon was out of that engine'.

Used to watch T&P SW-7's doing hump duty. Every now and then when they would grab a cut in the 100 yard and drag it up into the receiving yard, they would put the units in run 8. Sparks would shower out exhaust stacks like roman candles and sparks also would come from slipping wheels. It made quite a show at night. One watch I watched it go on for about half a mile.

I drug a pair of switch engines from KC to Topeka about a month ago. They had been puttin' around the yard and didn't get much of a workout. So, on the way out, I thought I would clean the stacks out so they would be ready to go once they got to Topeka. I put them online and off we went. Looking back after we cleared the yard and notched out to 8, you would have thought that we had 2 steam engines behind us.! My brakeman was kinda freaking out. I tell you what, those suckers were well cleaned out by the time we got to Topeka.

About 8 or 10 years ago, on the Midland railway Tourist line in Baldwin City, KS, we were having our Railfan's Day. I was running cab rides with our ex-Q NW2. The regular train put the second car on the ground 2 miles south of town, and I was called to come out and retrieve the rest of the train. We tied on, and decided to give to passenger's a photo runby on the way back to town. We dropped the passenger's off at a crossing, I backed up about 1/2 a mile, then charged the hill towards the crossing. I set a little air to pull hard against the train to give the railfan's some decent shots, and while doing so, heated the carbon in the rear stack. Just as I topped the hill and started notching off, the rear stack caught fire. I started setting air and dropped the generator field switch to let the fire blow itself out. The few remaining people on the open air caboose behind the engine ran for the doghouse for cover. A friend of mine still shows me the burn hole he got in his shirt every time he sees me.

Greg

Granted it is the carbon burning, but the carbon can come from two areas, A. The Exhuast Manifold B. The airbox. One tug I went to work on had some issues with sparking. Not good with a loaded Gas Barge behind you. Once shut down, I opened a few airbox covers and that airbox hadnt been cleaned out in years. 2 inch thick oily muck and carbon, all the way up the engine on both sides. After a full day of cleaning, she never sparked again. I usually clean the airboxes every six months or so.

Another trick with turbos, usually on the pipe from the Exhaust Manifold to the turbo is a pipe plug. Pull the plug and put a cup or so of uncooked rice in the hole. Start the engine, go outside and watch the show! Great way to clean a turbo

Have a Safe Day
BMH

Several times a month on the "Oil Cans" out of Bakersfield, CA, you'd have a switch engine going down to L.A. for needed work or inspection. Most of the time you could have them on-line, adding the 1,500 - 2,000 'extra' H.P. to the train, as every bit helped. Depending how long it had been in the yard, building up those carbon deposits, was the key to setting the Tehachapi Mountains on fire, or not. When we had Cabooses and a spot fire was started, we would stop and put it out. Then the Hoghead would go back and isolate the switcher. As you may know, since the Oil Cans usually were on the mountain during daylight hours, it was hard to see if the switcher was throwing out the red-hot carbon. If you had one in the consist during the evening, it was easy to see! Southern Pacific finally put out in the 'Special Instructions' that switch engines were to be 'isolated' or D.I.C. when in the Oil Train.

As stated before, you could have a 'July 4th'-type of display almost any day / night when you had plenty of hot carbon flying out the stack!

Take Care, Stay Safe, Have Fun!

Larry

We had a West-side Hauler out of Fresno one afternoon and in the consist was a GP-9 that had been used in yard service in Fresno Yard for quite some time. We were to drop it off in Los Banos to serve as power for the newly assigned melon job going on duty the next morning. Being it was early in July, the entire country was dry and ready to burn at the slightest spark from any source. There was a large group of run down shanty like cabins on the South end of Mendota right next to the track and downwind of the normal summertime breezes. By the time we reached Mendota the offending GP-9 was warming up real good and spitting carbon sparks that were quite visible in the dim light of early evening. Some of the sparks from the towering inferno exhaust went high in the sky and were still viable enough when landing on the shanty town to ignite the old tinder dry wood. It did not take long for the majority of the urban blight to be turned to ashes. The town of Mendota had something for front page news and the SP had a bill for urban renewal by fire.

Robert

When I retired off the UP in 2006, the BNSF had a notice out that no non-turbocharged units were to be "on the "line" on Cajon Pass, due to sparking and fire danger. I understand some special authority had to be granted to the UP when the E units were operated over Cajon.

Brian B.

....which is why all the tugs we design (ATB's), have spark-arresting silencers.....

Bob

BMH Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Granted it is the carbon burning, but the carbon
> can come from two areas, A. The Exhuast Manifold
> B. The airbox. One tug I went to work on had some
> issues with sparking. Not good with a loaded Gas
> Barge behind you. Once shut down, I opened a few
> airbox covers and that airbox hadnt been cleaned
> out in years. 2 inch thick oily muck and carbon,
> all the way up the engine on both sides. After a
> full day of cleaning, she never sparked again. I
> usually clean the airboxes every six months or
> so.
>
> Another trick with turbos, usually on the pipe
> from the Exhaust Manifold to the turbo is a pipe
> plug. Pull the plug and put a cup or so of
> uncooked rice in the hole. Start the engine, go
> outside and watch the show! Great way to clean a
> turbo
>
> Have a Safe Day
> BMH

US Forest Service regulations require an approved spark arrestor be installed on all locomotives that cross Forest Service land. A turbocharger is considered an effective spark arrestor as long as there is no bypass of exhaust around the turbine. Roots blown engines either need spark arresting exhaust manifolds or an external spark arrester such as the MoPac used to apply over the exhaust outlet stacks. There is a test that has to be conducted, and witnessed by a Forest Service representative, to prove the effectiveness of any locomotive spark arrestor involving the injection of specific sized activated charcoal particles into the exhaust legs of a running engine and capturing any the escape out the stack. As long as the engine is turbocharged, no test is required. Of course, any carbon deposits that build up downstream of the turbo or spark arrester are a sparking source so maintenance is required to keep the stacks free of carbon buildup. The oil separator eductor tube in the exhaust stack on EMD turbo engines is the biggest source of sparks on those engines.

Dave

Takes me back to the mid-Sixties, when I got up before 3am to deliver the Los Angeles Times in Duarte (Southern Calif.). I'd go down to the Santa Fe 2nd District and watch #8, the Mail Train go screaming by with an ABA set of Alco PA's on the point. The exhaust made me think of the Biblical phrase: "pillar of fire by night". In those days, Santa Fe trains going eastbound has to go slowly through the residential part of Pasadena, with two dozen grade crossings, most protected by wigwags. Once they reached Arcadia, the hogger could "crank 'er up" and by the time they got to Duarte, they were really "scorching the ballast".