Western Railroad Discussion > Quality Dispatching

Is there a "missing" link somewhere regarding dispatching on the UP not seen on the BNSF ?

Why is it that with double track & CTC that the Capitol trains cannot run on schedule whereas out on the BNSF with nearly all single track, the San Jacquins run on time ?

Case in point: Sunday (April 13th), westbound into Suisun was 20 mins. late and the conductor didn't have an answer as to why. Then because of lateness, had to wait until ship cleared the Suisun bridge and just past Martinez in the Ozol yard, a really slow order (5 MPH) on the #2 track.

On the last train east out of Oakland that same day, once again, the train was exactly 20 mins. late and again no answer from the same crew as found earlier in the day out of Suisun. Why is it that a general merchandise drag gets priority over that of a passenger train on the UP whereas on the BNSF, the opposite holds true ?

Case in point: Sunday night (April 13th), the last east bound train was late as mentioned above due to UP running a general merchandise train ahead of it when it could have been held out at around 5th Ave. until #748 passed it. But no, the Omaha dispatcher saw to it that it was run ahead of the #748 instead. And to make matters worse, why if such a practice is allowed to happen when there is two tracks out of the OKJ station and one could have been used by the freight train and the other by the 748 ???

But no, the freight just had to occupy the north track which caused even further delays for the 748 and when rounding curve by the UP engine shops, there was that general merchandise freight drag sitting there on the second track. How stupid of the dispatcher !!!

When is the State of California going to get it's head out of it's own ass and start taking a harder approach to the screwy dispatching coming out of Omaha ?? The state is forever paying for track upgrades, but the dispatching never seems to equal the trackage upgrade expeditures.

With double track from the Yolo Causeway all the way to Oakland and beyond, why is it that it is so hard for the UP to dispatch effectively and maintain a train schedule when over on the BNSF it doesn't seem to be a problem ??

It surely can't be a capacity problem can it ?

Or maybe the problem is much deeper in that the dispatcher sitting in that room in Omaha has never seen his/her terroritory and doesn't know it enough to maintain control, balance, and fluidity.

Travel 300 miles to Bakersfield on the San Jacquins and they not only run on time, but arrives on time with nearly all single BNSF trackage except for the small shared trackage on the UP and portions of BNSF double trackage.

Is the State of California listening ??????

Well, without knowing the territory, I would say that there must have been something in the background that maybe we don't know about.

There might have been something north or south that caused such a move, etc. Its really hard to arm chair the dispacher since there are so many variables internal and external beyond his/her control.

Also, it could have been an oversight/mistake. We dispatchers tend to do that too... :)

on the bnsf, there is an incredible focus on running passenger trains on time. it goes to the highest levels and is handled as a priority on the dispatcher/chief dispatcher level. last year was a record year for high performance and the bar has been raised. i have seen some incredible dispatching under some very trying conditions: mow work, heavy freight traffic, limited number of sidings, parked bare tables. the old saying that: energy flows where attention goes is true in this case, when many minds are focused on a priority, things get done right.

This has been a reported problem with UP for a long time... I recall something about Metrolink taking legal action against them a while back. Bottom line, like most big corporations, they probably find any complaints and fines given to them just part of the price they have to pay for doing business the way they want to... Not a deterrent. And as far as the state goes... This is the same government that wanted us to believe there wasn't nearly enough power to go around not too long ago, and that the rates the power brokers were charging were thereby justified... Rates that even now after finding that the whole shortage thing was completely bogus, have yet to come back to their original levels. Are you really surprised they can't make transportation companies do what they're supposed to either? :-)

Dave D.
Los Angeles, CA

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When I asked a BNSF Trainmaster about Amtrak handling, he mentioned that UP tends to bog down Amtrak quite a bit, but BNSF's philosophy is to run Amtrak as fast as they can so they can get it off their railroad and run their freights. Makes sense to me, I suppose.

Tom

There are a lot of variables in dispatching. Maybe the crew of the manifest train that was running ahead of Amtrak was short on time, and they had no crews available to dogcatch them. The 20 or 30 minutes it might take to cross that train over and hold it if there was opposing traffic, may have put that crew on the law, causing a bigger problem.

Or maybe there was just too much opposing traffic to do anything. If the crossovers are far apart, you're taking a big chunk of track and time just to clear a train, and possibly delaying other passenger trains in the process. The BNSF has a lot of sidings; I don't know about the UP's crossovers, but if they're not close together it creates a problem for dispatchers. With a siding Amtrak can get by you in 7,000 or 8,000 feet, with crossovers it may take 10 miles of track to clear Amtrak.

Another difference is the volume and speed of traffic. The UP generally runs slower trains, with a lot of manifest traffic running at 40 and 50, whereas BNSF's manifests are normally 55. It's a lot easier to keep things fluid when trains run close to the same speed. With BNSF you're looking at 55/70/79, and with UP you're looking at 40/50/60/70/79. And I think the UP has quite a bit more going on in that area than we do.

My knowledge of this is limited to what I hear on the radio, but I have seen UP hold up things for Amtrak and ACE and Caltrain time and time again in the part of the RR that is south of Oakland. Perhaps it is an issue with the individual dispatcher? The territories switch at Jack London Square. BTW, I have seen Amtrak use both tracks coming by Pinole to get around freights, so if the traffic allows it, the dispatchers can do that.

Also, as someone else said, unforseen things happen. The crew may think they can complete a move in time, but something comes up that makes it take longer and the result is a delay. There is a delicate balance between stopping the whole RR for the passenger trains and still getting the freight through. Some dispatchers are no doubt better at it than others.

But is there a company-wide bias against Amtrak? Who knows?

Wizard wrote:

> Is there a "missing" link somewhere regarding dispatching on
> the UP not seen on the BNSF ?

I don't think so. Might be some uninformed railbuffs, though.

> Why is it that with double track & CTC that the Capitol
> trains cannot run on schedule whereas out on the BNSF with
> nearly all single track, the San Jacquins run on time ?

Actually, neither of those statements are true 100% of the time.

> Case in point: Sunday (April 13th), westbound into Suisun was
> 20 mins. late and the conductor didn't have an answer as to
> why.

There are currently (well, as of Monday afternoon), 19 slow orders for passenger trains between San Jose and Sacramento. While all passenger trains take a hit because of this, it's especially rough on the Capitols, since each set of equipment makes multiple trips.

> Then because of lateness, had to wait until ship cleared the Suisun > bridge

And conversely, if the train had been on time when that ship showed up, the train would've had to wait. Water traffic has the right-of-way.

> and just past Martinez in the Ozol yard, a
> really slow order (5 MPH) on the #2 track.

Well, lesse. On the Number 2 Track, there's a 10 MPH slow order from M.P. 31 to M.P. 30.5, but I don't see one for 5 MPH. When you're riding in a double-deck passenger car, speeds tend to appear slower than they really are.

> On the last train east out of Oakland that same day, once
> again, the train was exactly 20 mins. late and again no answer
> from the same crew as found earlier in the day out of Suisun.

Well, again, there are 19 slow orders. Plus, one late train at OKJ tends to make other trains late, as the schedules "bunch up" at that location.

> Why is it that a general merchandise drag gets priority over
> that of a passenger train on the UP whereas on the BNSF, the
> opposite holds true ?

It's been stated many times here on this forum by John Bromley and Mike Ongerth that UP does not give "priority" to freight trains over Amtrak trains. This might not be obvious to the travelling public or uninformed railbuffs.

> Case in point: Sunday night (April 13th), the last east bound
> train was late as mentioned above due to UP running a general
> merchandise train ahead of it when it could have been held out
> at around 5th Ave. until #748 passed it.

At present, operation between Elmhurst and CP Strong (5th Avenue) is double track ABS territory. If movements are operated against the current of traffic they require a Track Permit (a train with only one person in the cab - such as Amtrak's Capitols - must stop to copy it), and must stop at the initial controlled signal and be "flagged in" by the dispatcher. Additionally, there is currently a 1.4 mile 15 MPH slow order, and two 30 MPH slow orders totaling 1.8 miles on the Number 1 Track. The dispatcher chose to operate the MWCPD and Number 748 via their normal route on the Number 2 Track, which does not have any slow orders. Number 748 was not adversely affected by this decision.

> But no, the Omaha
> dispatcher saw to it that it was run ahead of the #748 instead.
> And to make matters worse, why if such a practice is allowed to
> happen when there is two tracks out of the OKJ station and one
> could have been used by the freight train and the other by the
> 748 ???

The dispatcher crossed the MWCPD from the Number 2 Track to the Number 1 Track at one of the folowing locations: CP Strong, CP King Street, or CP Magnolia. CP Strong is the preferred location unless there's already an opposing movement. This is SOP during the times Amtrak trains are in the area to keep the Number 2 Track available for their use between OKJ and EMY. The maximum authorized speed for passenger trains from CP Strong to CP Magnolia is 25, while it's only 15 for freight trains. Additionally, when the present trackage and crossovers was installed using state funding, the state elected not to install high-speed crossovers and turnouts between the above mentioned points. Thus, freight trains are restricted to 10 MPH when using those crossovers and turnouts...so a mile-long freight train can take quite a while to clear.

> But no, the freight just had to occupy the north track which
> caused even further delays for the 748 and when rounding curve
> by the UP engine shops, there was that general merchandise
> freight drag sitting there on the second track. How stupid of
> the dispatcher !!!

Actually, it was a SMART move by the dispatcher! The MWCPD changes crews at the Bay Street crew office in Oakland. By moving this train from the Number 2 Track to the Number 1 Track (the "north track", as you call it), it allowed Number 748 to have a "straight shot" on clear signals to EMY.

> When is the State of California going to get it's head out of
> it's own ass and start taking a harder approach to the screwy
> dispatching coming out of Omaha ??

There was no problem with the dispatching in the example you cite.

> The state is forever paying
> for track upgrades, but the dispatching never seems to equal
> the trackage upgrade expeditures.

Again, it's not a dispatching problem, it's a question of who's going to pay for upgrades and maintenance for the additional requirements of operating passenger trains on a freight railroad. There are currently two projects underway between Elmhurst and CP Strong. One is the tie renewal project on the Number 1 Track (the cause of those three slow orders on that stretch of track). The other is the installation of CTC between those two points which will allow signaled operation in either direction on both tracks. The state is paying for both of these projects.

> With double track from the Yolo Causeway all the way to
> Oakland and beyond, why is it that it is so hard for the UP to
> dispatch effectively and maintain a train schedule when over on
> the BNSF it doesn't seem to be a problem ??

See below...

> It surely can't be a capacity problem can it ?

The UP's portion also has the Capitol trains. Numbers 5 and 6, and Numbers 11 and 14 to contend with, while BNSF merely has the San Joaquins.

> Or maybe the problem is much deeper in that the dispatcher
> sitting in that room in Omaha has never seen his/her
> terroritory and doesn't know it enough to maintain control,
> balance, and fluidity.

It's true that many UP dispatchers have never physically ridden the territory they dispatch, but historically that has never been a major problem.


> Travel 300 miles to Bakersfield on the San Jacquins and they
> not only run on time, but arrives on time with nearly all
> single BNSF trackage except for the small shared trackage on
> the UP and portions of BNSF double trackage.

You've answered your own question here. The majority of freight trains on the BNSF are intermodal. Many of these trains can "stay ahead of" the Amtrak trains, since the freights gain time on a following passenger train at each station stop the passenger train makes. Conversely, the UP between San Jose and Sacremento not only sees many more Amtrak trains, but it also has to contend with slower-speed freight trains, locals, and yard jobs. Plus, operating on double track sometimes has its own drawbacks, such as at the Richmond station. If the Amtrak train arrives on the "wrong" track, what do you do about the passengers waiting on the platform (there's a fence between the two main tracks, you see). Additionally, Amtrak often has self-inflicted delays in Oakland because of issues getting their trains into and out of their passenger yard and late busses.

Here's an example that happened Sunday night, the same night you refer to. Number 14's lead unit (AMTK 510) was scheduled to be removed from the train ay OKJ and operated by the Amtrak yard job into their yard. For reasons unknown, this fact had not been given to the dispatcher, who had lined Number 14 from the depot track at OKJ to the depot track at EMY. It was not until after the Amtrak yard crew had departed OKJ with the 510 that they told the dispatcher what they were doing and where they needed to go. Consequently, the dispatcher had to "pick up" the signal at CP Magnolia, "run time", issue a "signal request" so the 510 could leave the main track and enter the yard, then issue anther "signal request" so Number 14 could continue on to EMY. The whole process took maybe 10 or 15 minutes, which isn't much, but if opposing trains 717 and 551 had ended up getting "stabbed" at Magnolia, there would've been some unhappy campers. Trains lose hours by the minute!

> Is the State of California listening ??????

To what?

Thanks for a thorough, top quality reply, Topper.

Excellent description of what goes on behind the scenes. Is there a more widely second-guessed job on the railroad than a dispatcher?

I had a crew question me last week about why I was letting #179, a regular freight train, run ahead of #275, an auto-rack train. The reason?
Very simple. #179 would be able to get right into Chattanooga yard, and #275 was going to be held out an hour or more due to a MofW window on the Georgia Division south of Chatt. Granted, #275 is a much hotter train, but why favor a train over another one when it isn't going anywhere?

topper's reply was excellent. railroading is not an exact science, but it is a science. dispatching, when done right, is an art form. many times it is a lost art. it is very satisfying to see newer, younger dispatchers come along who really work hard and end up "getting it". sometimes the plaudits come, sometimes there is unjustified criticism, but the dispatcher always knows when he/she walks out the door if that was their best effort. i often think about the crews going home, maybe i can save them an hour or 1/2 hour on their trip, get them home a little sooner for that family dinner, their favorte t.v. show or sports game or a kid's little league game. sometimes, no matter how hard or smart the ds works, things are going to be screwed up. the best days are when you come out of a heavy traffic day and through hard work and teamwork it all worked out. that is a very good feeling, knowing you made one or 2 moves that saved the day and made it work for everyone.

Thanks, Topper, for a lucid reply as to what is going on with that Cal-P job.

I know the second trick DS, and I understand he is highly regarded by those out in the field. To hear some of his horror stories of the traffic, maintenance of way, and on-line work some of the freights have out there, it is everybit the nightmare you describe. You might also add the insistance by corridor managers of dispensing under-powered and over-sized trains out of Roseville ahead of the passenger trains, short on time and with work en route. That's gotta be fun, too!

Just to add more to the discussion, the BNSF Valley sub between Stockton and Bakersfeild has sidings every 6-8 miles generally with 40 MPH turn outs, that leads to a faster operation, also of course as opther posters mentioned, about 1/3 the number of passenger trains that the Cal-P has.