Western Railroad Discussion > So much for PTC...

Get a load of THIS... http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-10-21/tribes-vetting-22-000-antennae-halt-13-billion-rail-plan.html

Anyone who has ever attempted to do any photography of the BNSF on tribal lands in AZ or NM knows the morass that "the native American autonomous nations" can present. Legally they're literally independent nations within US boundaries. Having lived, bought and sold homes, and interacted with INCOG (Indian Nation Council Of Government) in Tulsa, I can give first hand testimony that the railroads are going to spend a LOT of $$$$ and time before the PTC pipe-dream can become the reality the bureaucrats dream of. Good luck BNSF, UP, et al... You're gonna need it.

A BNSF Signal Department employee told me that other projects, not just PTC, are being impacted by these actions.

In case people wonder later why there aren't many comments in this thread...

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,3215311

If it's true the Indian Nations are just as strict against the building of cell towers as implied in the above link, then why worry about PTC? Had Chatsworth been in Indian lands, maybe the Metrolink accident would have never happened.

Ill say it again, "Navajo say no!".

Posted from Android

To quote Mel Gibson in Maverick, "sacred ground is sacred ground".

Wouldn't that mean also then that when, for example, the BNSF wanted to move trackside signals they would have to get tribal appoval? If you wanted to move a signal you'd have to dig a new foundation to secure it.

See my post on the other thread. I suspect this is nothing but a red herring. Land already in railroad use is covered by a "categorical exemption". Unless you want to put the signal outside the existing ROW (unlikely), you can do what you want without anyone's permission.

Just write the tribes a fat check and they will happily give permission.

Todd Clark
Canyon Country, CA
Trainorders.com

NEPA review has been required for over a decade. It is mentioned on every FCC application form for new antennas. This has NOTHING to do with putting antenna structures on reservation lands. Any new, FCC licensed antenna structure built in the US undergoes a NEPA checklist, even if it is a cell antenna placed on a high rise, downtown building. It doesn't matter if no dirt is disturbed, it still goes through NEPA. Part of NEPA review is consultation with local tribes to ensure sacred lands, burial sites, etc., are not impacted by a new structure.

The railroads only have themselves to blame on this one. They should have known. Or, more likely, they did know and this is a handy excuse for slipping further behind schedule on PTC.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/22/13 11:37 by radar.

>Just write the tribes a fat check and they will happily give permission.

>Todd Clark



And that folks is the sum total of the entire equation.

Bill Miller
Galt, ON

CCMF Wrote:
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> >Just write the tribes a fat check and they will
> happily give permission.
>
> >Todd Clark
>
>
>
> And that folks is the sum total of the entire
> equation.

Send 'em guns and whiskey. Worked pretty well a
century ago.

Stop going to their casinos, that'll put a dent in their "self-reliance"

sp5312 Wrote:
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> Stop going to their casinos, that'll put a dent in
> their "self-reliance"


And those are not limited to just AZ & NM. Throw in Oklahoma as well. Hit em where it hurts. Ben

webmaster Wrote:
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> Just write the tribes a fat check and they will
> happily give permission.

That's what Exxon/Conoco thought when it was time to renew their pipeline lease across the Flathead reservation in Montana. After a year or more of negotiation the petroleum companies found out the tribes were serious when they said it was not about the money they really did not want the leaky pipeline under their property. So we now have the MRL gas trains twice a day sometimes running across the reservation.

Posted from Windows Phone OS 7

Didn't the railroad ROWs precede the reservations?

Normanroger Wrote:
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> Didn't the railroad ROWs precede the reservations?

In some instances like the NP and GN the reservations were there first and Congress had to pass legislation allowing passage after negotiations with the tribes were completed.

Posted from Windows Phone OS 7

ns2557 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> sp5312 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Stop going to their casinos, that'll put a dent
> in
> > their "self-reliance"
>
>
> And those are not limited to just AZ & NM. Throw
> in Oklahoma as well. Hit em where it hurts. Ben

Yep, This is the United States of America, OUR land, and we stole it fair and square, case closed....or is it? As for hit 'em where it hurts....do you think that hitting them until we have practically exterminated them hurts? I'm not so happy either about the manner in which native Americans treat the white man, and I am a white man, but I do understand why they treat the white man with such hostility and disdain. So, we stole the whole continent, or the US, if one prefers, and then gave them those reservations on land we did not want....and now, as per our "Custom", members here want to take back the reservations too...and give them what? Nothing? Or maybe another final solution? The general TO attitude about native Americans is very familiar to me, sounds a lot like the attitudes towards those unfortunates whom the term Darwin is applied by some here at TO. Before you ask, yes, I, too, am disturbed by some of the restrictions placed on visitors to reservations, but the reservations are, by US treaty, theirs to do as they choose. There seem to be plenty of mining/power operations that have been successful in their dealings with reservation authorities, how do they do it? AA

Stanford White
Carmel Valley, CA

As far as the ex-ATSF ROW's are concerned, there are separate treaties with the various tribes, mostly Navajo. That is one of the reasons that two of the rail gangs are all Navajo. This, among other concessions to get access to the land.

Andy2472 Wrote:
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> As far as the ex-ATSF ROW's are concerned, there
> are separate treaties with the various tribes,
> mostly Navajo. That is one of the reasons that two
> of the rail gangs are all Navajo. This, among
> other concessions to get access to the land.


Didn't hurt that the Navajo track gangs are some of the best around.
They work hard and take great pride in their work too.

webmaster Wrote:
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> Just write the tribes a fat check and they will
> happily give permission.

Exactly. Follow the money folks. This has been seen many times before with other issues on "sacred Indian land". Just like everyone else, if someone, redmen included, get the chance to extort a few bucks, they take it. Once you pay them their "tribute" (see "Goodfellas" if you don't know the term), they'll grant you just about anything you want.