Western Railroad Discussion > Latest on UP AR accident; southbound did not stop

Do not think this is posted yet, latest from NTSB;
http://www.wmcactionnews5.com/story/26311753/ntsb-train-given-signals-to-slow-stop-before-hitting-northbound-train

gmojim



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/14 08:50 by gmojim.

And cue the crew fatigue arguement in 3, 2, 1....

I probably missed it, but were the deceased crew members on the same train ?

ddg Wrote:
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> I probably missed it, but were the deceased crew
> members on the same train ?

According to the link within the article linked above, both of the deceased crewmen were on the southbound train.

Both deceased were on the southbound train.

PHall Wrote:
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> And cue the crew fatigue arguement in 3, 2,
> 1....


While certainly it is too early to conclusively determine the accurate cause, this seems the most likely. Not sure why you think that crew fatigue may not be an issue given what we know so far.

As always, they do investigations to try and cover every possible contributing factor. We shall see..

1019X Wrote:
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> Both deceased were on the southbound train.

What I read the other crew jumped.
Bob

Okay I may be reading it wrong but an "advanced approach" does not require a crew to stop at the next signal. It would tell the crew to prepare to slow down at the next signal. There are also wording about if this signal governs approach to a high speed turn out it could mean advance on diverging route.

You are correct about signal meanings. However, at least in the PNW, an advance approach (flashing yellow) is generally not used by itself to indicate a diverging route at the next signal -although it could. It requires a crew to prepare to pass the next signal not exceeding 40mph unless it is seen to be another advance approach or clear. U.P. tends to use the approach diverging (double yellow) to indicate a diverging route at the next signal at prescribed speed through the turnout.
Regarding an earlier post discussing U.P.'s coded cab signals, a good friend who just retired from the Railroad mentioned he always felt safer running in CCS territory. I was amazed to find out how long CCS has been around. Sounds like it could have prevented other head-on collisions such as the one in Kelso, WA 20 years ago on the BN. Don't know why it wasn't used in more places.

Posted from iPhone

>Okay I may be reading it wrong but an "advanced approach" does not require a crew to stop at the next signal. It would tell the crew to prepare to slow down at the next signal. There are also wording about if this signal governs approach to a high speed turn out it could mean advance on diverging route.

On the UP, "Advance Approach" means "flashing yellow". A flashing yellow gives notification that the next signal can be no more restrictive than "Approach" (yellow) AND it requires passing that signal, if yellow, at whatever the reduced speed requirements are (40 or 30 mph). A signal displaying "Approach" (yellow) doesn't require stopping at the next signal, when red, unless the red means "Stop" rather than "Proceed at Restricted Speed".

Edited to add:

>I was amazed to find out how long CCS has been around.

Approximately 1933.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/14 11:36 by EtoinShrdlu.

To funny we hear this all the time. The name of the signal indication is advanced approach the signal you see in the field is flashing yellow. Have heard several managers rag on crews for just calling a flashing yellow in stead of proper name advanced approach. It is like you can tell who the newbies are by listening to them call signals. Especially like when they call diverging restricting. Loved running the cab signals in the Oregon gorge A nice safety back up when they are working.

Every signal has a name, and aspect, and an indication. People tend to confuse aspect with name. A lot of old heads still use the aspect because that's all we had to do back in the day. It's a hard habit to break. I still catch myself calling out a "lunar" or "all red", which are not correct.

Boy don't even go to a different railroads signals or this discussion will be highjacked. The accident happened on a piece of the UP railroad I have never run. So that is why I brought up the point about an advance approach could be an indication to move on diverging route. I know about the signals here in the PNW.

Frisco Wrote:
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> Boy don't even go to a different railroads signals
> or this discussion will be highjacked. The
> accident happened on a piece of the UP railroad I
> have never run. So that is why I brought up the
> point about an advance approach could be an
> indication to move on diverging route. I know
> about the signals here in the PNW.


It's amazing how the different lines have retained their unique signals and meanings for so many decades. Even on passenger lines.

(in the early days of automobiles, different towns etc used different variations of stop / go signals, too. Some towns still use a blinking amber, going to full amber, while others still go from red to amber to green. With appropriate penalties, etc for violators.)

A little bit to add concerning the signal aspect of this discussion. On the UP in my territory, many times when we have a 40 MPH turnout/crossover, we will only get an advanced approach as the signal leading up to the control point where the turnout/crossover is located. This includes crossovers in two main track territory and turnouts where we go from two main track into single track and single track into two main track.

imrl Wrote:
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> A little bit to add concerning the signal aspect
> of this discussion. On the UP in my territory,
> many times when we have a 40 MPH
> turnout/crossover, we will only get an advanced
> approach as the signal leading up to the control
> point where the turnout/crossover is located. This
> includes crossovers in two main track territory
> and turnouts where we go from two main track into
> single track and single track into two main track.

When you get an advance approach, aren't you supposed
to be down to 40 mph or less when you pass the next
signal anyway?

imrl Wrote:
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> This includes crossovers in two main track territory
> and turnouts where we go from two main track into
> single track and single track into two main track.

That is a throw back to the old UP Speed Signals from days gone by soon to be replaced with what is more standard system wide.

Lunar aspects are another planned to be phased out.

---

EtoinShrdlu Wrote:
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> >Okay I may be reading it wrong but an "advanced
> approach" does not require a crew to stop at the
> next signal. It would tell the crew to prepare to
> slow down at the next signal. There are also
> wording about if this signal governs approach to a
> high speed turn out it could mean advance on
> diverging route.
>
> On the UP, "Advance Approach" means "flashing
> yellow". A flashing yellow gives notification that
> the next signal can be no more restrictive than
> "Approach" (yellow) AND it requires passing that
> signal, if yellow, at whatever the reduced speed
> requirements are (40 or 30 mph). A signal
> displaying "Approach" (yellow) doesn't require
> stopping at the next signal, when red, unless the
> red means "Stop" rather than "Proceed at
> Restricted Speed".
>
> Edited to add:
>
> >I was amazed to find out how long CCS has been
> around.
>
> Approximately 1933.
Advanced approach means be prepared to stop at 2nd signal. Generally used where on the two blocks is a short one. At least that is the way it works on NS.

Why is the US signal system designed, Red, Yellow (Flashing Yellow), Green instead of Red, Red (with warning, main horn blowing continuously, etc), Yellow (Flashing Yellow), Green? Seems like the stop indication can be too close to the object ahead.

goldenlvr Wrote:
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> Why is the US signal system designed, Red, Yellow
> (Flashing Yellow), Green instead of Red, Red (with
> warning, main horn blowing continuously, etc),
> Yellow (Flashing Yellow), Green? Seems like the
> stop indication can be too close to the object
> ahead.

??? What the heck does this mean?