Western Railroad Discussion > PTC extension bill starts in the House

This is for 3 years with longer extensions on a case by case basis. The idea seems to have support in both houses.

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSKCN0RU1VZ20150930?il=0

Posted from iPhone

It had better have support in both houses, or lots of things come to a standstill on January 1.  And lots of annoyance kicks in, too.

There's been a lot of yelling on here about PTC as if there's even a slight chance that congress, who works for business, won't pass this extention.  BNSF will have it working well before 3 years though because they're investing in a Conductor replacement device that also happens to encourage safety. 

http://transportation.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=399332

OK, I'll bite:  what is a conductor replacement device?

BNSF wants one man (engineer only) road crews.  PTC, in theory, does SOME of the duties of a conductor, making it easier for carriers to cut the position down the road.  It also threatens manned trains in general.  I think PTC combined with GE trip optimizer concerns engineers about their future too.

It would help all PTC conversations on this site if there was a photo of a PTC screen in use.  I think a lot of people on here don't understand a lot of what it does, and that's understandable.  I'm tempted to put a photo of a PTC screen on here but too many people will probably DM me threaten to tell on me like 3rd grade.  It's basically like a navigation system in car that is presented in a linear left to right timeline, like video or music editing software.  I personally like it when it's working.  It's a nice backup to be able to confirm the signal you are running on, track speed, track bulletins and how you're lined up etc. However, we all know the carrier wants it to eventually replace us so we can't like it too much.  The older you are, the more you hate it. 

tomstp Wrote:
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> OK, I'll bite:  what is a conductor replacement
> device?

Vernthecat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> BNSF wants one man (engineer only) road crews.
>  PTC, in theory, does SOME of the duties of a
> conductor, making it easier for carriers to cut
> the position down the road.  It also threatens
> manned trains in general.  I think PTC combined
> with GE trip optimizer concerns engineers about
> their future too.
>
> It would help all PTC conversations on this site
> if there was a photo of a PTC screen in use.  I
> think a lot of people on here don't understand a
> lot of what it does, and that's understandable.
>  I'm tempted to put a photo of a PTC screen on
> here but too many people will probably DM me
> threaten to tell on me like 3rd grade.  It's
> basically like a navigation system in car that is
> presented in a linear left to right timeline, like
> video or music editing software.  I personally
> like it when it's working.  It's a nice backup to
> be able to confirm the signal you are running on,
> track speed, track bulletins and how you're lined
> up etc. However, we all know the carrier wants it
> to eventually replace us so we can't like it too
> much.  The older you are, the more you hate
> it. 


  Interesting take on it. I find it highly distracting.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/30/15 13:17 by crackerjackhoghead.

Vernthecat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> BNSF wants one man (engineer only) road crews.
>  PTC, in theory, does SOME of the duties of a
> conductor, making it easier for carriers to cut
> the position down the road.  It also threatens
> manned trains in general.  I think PTC combined
> with GE trip optimizer concerns engineers about
> their future too.
>
> It would help all PTC conversations on this site
> if there was a photo of a PTC screen in use.  I
> think a lot of people on here don't understand a
> lot of what it does, and that's understandable.
>  I'm tempted to put a photo of a PTC screen on
> here but too many people will probably DM me
> threaten to tell on me like 3rd grade.  It's
> basically like a navigation system in car that is
> presented in a linear left to right timeline, like
> video or music editing software.  I personally
> like it when it's working.  It's a nice backup to
> be able to confirm the signal you are running on,
> track speed, track bulletins and how you're lined
> up etc. However, we all know the carrier wants it
> to eventually replace us so we can't like it too
> much.  The older you are, the more you hate
> it. 
>
Trip Optimizer had an interesting start too. Initally engineers hated it as they're trained to do, new technology is bad and stealing their jobs. Now that we've had it for a while, the engineers complain when they don't have it because they've become used to the help!

I suspect PTC will be the same.

crackerjackhoghead Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>   Interesting take on it. I find it highly distracting.

^^^This^^^

There's going to be a lot of looking at screens, and less looking ahead out the window. Situational awareness will be compromised in some ways.

trainjunkie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> crackerjackhoghead Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >   Interesting take on it. I find it highly
> distracting.
>
> ^^^This^^^
>
> There's going to be a lot of looking at screens,
> and less looking ahead out the window. Situational
> awareness will be compromised in some ways.

  That's if you can even see out the window at night with four screens glaring in your face.

portlander Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Trip Optimizer had an interesting start too.
> Initally engineers hated it as they're trained to
> do, new technology is bad and stealing their jobs.
> Now that we've had it for a while, the engineers
> complain when they don't have it because they've
> become used to the help!
>
> I suspect PTC will be the same.

  My take on PTC is that it will be a leg up to a bad engineer and drag down a good one. And, they're gonna raise a whole generation of engineers that can't run a train without the machine telling them what to do, like the kids at McDonald's that can't make change without the machine. Just like we raised a generation of engineers that can't tell if they're speeding up or slowing down without an accelerometer!

What about mechanical situations that come up (plenty of which I have read about on here) that need two or even more people to fix/repair, or even handle manual switches, all of those things?  And what if the sanders don't work when needed so that manual sanding of a stretch of track needs to be done?

Who's going to fix broken knuckles, air hoses, wire up dragging brake rigging and a whole bunch of
stuff that I remember from my railroad days?

raytc1944 Wrote:
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> Who's going to fix broken knuckles, air hoses,
> wire up dragging brake rigging and a whole bunch
> of
> stuff that I remember from my railroad days?

  The conductor. That's why we're training the box, 'cause they're gonna get rid of engineers first.

There's been many conversations about this on here, but long story short the plan was to have a roaming conductor in a high-rail that could rapid respond. 

raytc1944 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Who's going to fix broken knuckles, air hoses,
> wire up dragging brake rigging and a whole bunch
> of
> stuff that I remember from my railroad days?

Maybe, but for the conductor, it's not something you have to be glued to to do your job.  It's more of a reference.   The engineer needs it more but even still, if they're running right it shouldn't need to be something that requires a lot of their attention.  Plus it tells you what's coming up in the form of "targets."  It even knows where the whistle boards are.  Keep in mind we're on the main line here, not in 6.28 territory.  

The railroad is kind of like your grandpa who's never sent an email and only reads the paper.  Technology is not something that you see a lot of compared to other industries.  To be quite honest, I look at it and think, this should've been on locomotives 10 - 15 years ago.  It's nothing crazy hi-tech at a glance.  I had navigation with points on interest on my car in 2004.  Yes I know it couldn't stop my car, but still.  Love it, hate it, like it whatever - all emotions on the topic aside - it would be really hard to make the case that it makes us less safe.

trainjunkie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> crackerjackhoghead Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >   Interesting take on it. I find it highly
> distracting.
>
> ^^^This^^^
>
> There's going to be a lot of looking at screens,
> and less looking ahead out the window. Situational
> awareness will be compromised in some ways.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/30/15 19:37 by Vernthecat.

Vernthecat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
  Love it, hate it, like it whatever - all
> emotions on the topic aside - it would be really
> hard to make the case that it makes us less safe.

  I agree.
  I must be getting old. During the PTC training I felt somewhat bewildered by it all and thought to myself, this must be a little what it was like for the steam guys when diesles came along.

Since I have used both here is the real story.
When using PTC at this time we are not allowed to use GE Trip Optimizer. This may change later???
All of the engineers I have talked to only like the GE Trip Optimizer mapping part of the program which shows all "Form A and B" and the mile post location. Most do not care for it
running the train especially when working on a coal load.