Western Railroad Discussion > What benefits do railroads receive from handling commuter traffic

I grew up in the Bay Area and for years have wondered why the railroad puts up with the hassle of running Amtrack and Ace commuter trains. I think of all the dispatching headaches and delays when amtrack pulls up lame, and think, there has to be a lot of $ changing hands for this? Or are there other reasons why a class 1 would spend so much $ to keep a line open(Coast Line or Raton Pass) just for amtrack?

Thanks

Posted from iPhone

Track improvements for one and they pitch in on the Maintenance.

>Track improvements for one

Only if someone else pays for them.

> and they pitch in on the Maintenance.

Only if someone else pays for it to be maintained above what the RR would otherwise do.

EtoinShrdlu Wrote:
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> >Track improvements for one
>
> Only if someone else pays for them.
>
> > and they pitch in on the Maintenance.
>
> Only if someone else pays for it to be maintained
> above what the RR would otherwise do.

In both cases, that is virtually always. Can you name one in which it is not? (No, not counting operations started by railroads before there were "freight railroads.)

TAW

if u have a HIGH density freight line, the only benefit i can think of having a freight railroad hosting commuter trains would be HUGE financial incentives. during the am and pm commuter rushes, freight traffic may not even be able to run......

66

Doodle Wrote:
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> Or are
> there other reasons why a class 1 would spend so
> much $ to keep a line open(Coast Line or Raton
> Pass) just for amtrack?
>
> Thanks
>
> Posted from iPhone

Please name a host freight railroad and location where a freight railroad keeps a line open and active for only Amtrak or other passenger train to operate on.

jst3751 Wrote:
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> Doodle Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Or are
> > there other reasons why a class 1 would spend
> so
> > much $ to keep a line open(Coast Line or Raton
> > Pass) just for amtrack?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Posted from iPhone
>
> Please name a host freight railroad and location
> where a freight railroad keeps a line open and
> active for only Amtrak or other passenger train to
> operate on.

Didn't BNSF offer to cut speeds and maintenance on the Raton Route to 35 mph?

Amtrak went nuts...

Posted from Android

Big bucks is why. Amtrak (without a "c") pays freight railroads to maintain their tracks at the required speeds. In many cases, this amounts to much more money than if the freight railroad maintained their track without subsidy for passenger service. Research some sites to see examples. Raton is a perfect example, but there are others. This is one reason why CSX will not permit trains to run from New Orleans through Pansacola, FL as well as AL & MS. The cost to keep the tracks for higher speeds isn't worth the landlord freight company without the subsidy.

Cliffs619 Wrote:
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> Big bucks is why. Amtrak (without a "c") pays
> freight railroads to maintain their tracks at the
> required speeds. In many cases, this amounts to
> much more money than if the freight railroad
> maintained their track without subsidy for
> passenger service. Research some sites to see
> examples. Raton is a perfect example, but there
> are others. This is one reason why CSX will not
> permit trains to run from New Orleans through
> Pansacola, FL as well as AL & MS. The cost to
> keep the tracks for higher speeds isn't worth the
> landlord freight company without the subsidy.

Didn't CSX invite Amtrak to resume service btw NOL and JAX after repairs? Amtrak said NO

Posted from Android

True....but CSX wanted Amtrak to pay for these improvements....and the costs were astronomical. Who wouldn't want to use "other people's money"?

Freight railroads can also get a bunch of facilities and capacity upgrades, at the expense of the taxpayer, by agreeing to host passenger trains (or more passenger trains). BNSF has received a huge amounts of upgrades in Western Washington in agreeing to host more passenger trains (Amtrak Cascades service (paid for by Washington State) and Seattle Area commuter trains).

one of the mjor reasons commute traffic has not been extended from Gilroy Ca to Salinas is because the UP wants sidings and CTC upgrades , even tho their freight traffic is minimal, to say the least.
C

Carol Voss
Bakersfield, CA

CarolVoss Wrote:
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> one of the mjor reasons commute traffic has not
> been extended from Gilroy Ca to Salinas is because
> the UP wants sidings and CTC upgrades , even tho
> their freight traffic is minimal, to say the
> least.


Long ago, I was told by a BN Superintendent that I was doing it (passenger projects) all wrong. Instead of figuring out what is needed to run the trains, make a big list; ask for a lot. If they go for it, tell them you made a mistake and ask for more.

TAW

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jst3751 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Doodle Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Or are
> > > there other reasons why a class 1 would spend
> > so
> > > much $ to keep a line open(Coast Line or
> Raton
> > > Pass) just for amtrack?
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > > Posted from iPhone
> >
> > Please name a host freight railroad and
> location
> > where a freight railroad keeps a line open and
> > active for only Amtrak or other passenger train
> to
> > operate on.
>
> Didn't BNSF offer to cut speeds and maintenance on
> the Raton Route to 35 mph?
>
> Amtrak went nuts...
>
> Posted from Android

However, BNSF still sends freights over Raton, so in the context of Doodle's specific question I responded to, that does not count.

What I find appalling is the UP on their Sunset Ltd. route claiming that they need major improvements to operate the Amtrak Sunset Ltd. as a daily train. What utter rubbish. It is called extortion by UP to get money from Amtrak.

In fact, I think railroads in general operate better and in a much more disciplined fashion when there are passenger trains present. They schedule their trains; they schedule maintenance; they watch train lengths and engine power; they make repairs quickly to track and signals etc.

jst3751 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lackawanna484 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > jst3751 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Doodle Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > Or are
> > > > there other reasons why a class 1 would
> spend
> > > so
> > > > much $ to keep a line open(Coast Line or
> > Raton
> > > > Pass) just for amtrack?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks
> > > >
> > > > Posted from iPhone
> > >
> > > Please name a host freight railroad and
> > location
> > > where a freight railroad keeps a line open
> and
> > > active for only Amtrak or other passenger
> train
> > to
> > > operate on.
> >
> > Didn't BNSF offer to cut speeds and maintenance
> on
> > the Raton Route to 35 mph?
> >
> > Amtrak went nuts...
> >
> > Posted from Android
>
> However, BNSF still sends freights over Raton, so
> in the context of Doodle's specific question I
> responded to, that does not count.

The extension down to the New Mexico owned section would count, however.

MEKoch Wrote:
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> What I find appalling is the UP on their Sunset
> Ltd. route claiming that they need major
> improvements to operate the Amtrak Sunset Ltd. as
> a daily train. What utter rubbish. It is called
> extortion by UP to get money from Amtrak.

why should a freight railroad agree to run a passenger train DAILY and not demand capacity increases so that BOTH the passenger AND freight trains incur MINIMAL delays?

> In fact, I think railroads in general operate
> better and in a much more disciplined fashion when
> there are passenger trains present. They schedule
> their trains; they schedule maintenance; they
> watch train lengths and engine power; they make
> repairs quickly to track and signals etc.


66

jst3751 Wrote:
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>
> However, BNSF still sends freights over Raton, so
> in the context of Doodle's specific question I
> responded to, that does not count.

As far as I was aware, BNSF has not run any freight trains over the Raton line (Trinidad to Lamy) for several years. In fact I was not sure they had any train crews qualified to operate on the line, but maybe there is enough maintenance of way activity to keep a very limited number of train crews qualified.

A few years ago the State of California offered to pay part of the cost of upgrading of UP's Donner Pass line if UP would allow additional passenger service from Sacramento to Reno. Now there is only the once daily Amtrak service. UP refused. I don't remember the figure but the sum on offer was considerable.

czephyr17 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jst3751 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> >
> > However, BNSF still sends freights over Raton,
> so
> > in the context of Doodle's specific question I
> > responded to, that does not count.
>
> As far as I was aware, BNSF has not run any
> freight trains over the Raton line (Trinidad to
> Lamy) for several years. In fact I was not sure
> they had any train crews qualified to operate on
> the line, but maybe there is enough maintenance of
> way activity to keep a very limited number of
> train crews qualified.

Correct. It's been about a decade since BNSF has run freight over Raton.