Western Railroad Discussion > Signal question

I know what flashing yellow is and red over flashing yellow. But, what is flashing red over red? Saw that in downtown Ft Worth today on the UP.

tomstp Wrote:
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> I know what flashing yellow is and red over
> flashing yellow. But, what is flashing red over
> red? Saw that in downtown Ft Worth today on the
> UP.


Wherever I have seen that, it's a "switching signal" -- take headroom past the signal, then reverse direction. But I don't know if that rule applies on UP or not.

Restricting. Proceed at restricted speed.

Restricting on UP. Proceed at restricted speed. afaik, u still need permission from the DS to make a backup move without a light in the opposite direction.

> Restricting on UP. Proceed at restricted speed.


>afaik, u still need permission from the DS to make a backup move without a light in the opposite direction.

Depends on whether the rear car of your train has passed the signal or not.

How is the flashing red over red different from white over red or red over white? Isn't that "pass at restricted speed"?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/17 14:05 by tomstp.

tomstp Wrote:
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> How is the flashing red over red different from
> white over red or red over white? Isn't that
> "pass at restricted speed"?


Unless the rule has changed since I retired nine years ago, the lunar, or white, indication means you are leaving signaled territory and entering non-signalled territory such as a yard.

tomstp Wrote:
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> How is the flashing red over red different from
> white over red or red over white? Isn't that
> "pass at restricted speed"?


Based on the response, >R</R, R/L*, and L/R are all Restricting.... just under different individual rulebooks. (*-L = Lunar White).

In the East, all red above a bottom yellow (R/Y, R/R/Y) also is used for Restricting, as well as R/L and R/L/R.

CPCoyote Wrote:
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> tomstp Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > How is the flashing red over red different from
> > white over red or red over white? Isn't that
> > "pass at restricted speed"?
>
>
> Unless the rule has changed since I retired nine
> years ago, the lunar, or white, indication means
> you are leaving signaled territory and entering
> non-signalled territory such as a yard.

It's not Western, but CSX uses a Lunar White in a R/L or R/L/R aspect for Restricting on controlled tracks as well. Just saw it multiple times today on CSX in NW Ohio.

tomstp Wrote:
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> How is the flashing red over red different from
> white over red or red over white? Isn't that
> "pass at restricted speed"?
Most signals can't display lunar, so flashing red is used to mean the same thing. FR over R is restricting, R over FR is still restricting, but diverging onto another track.

Red over lunar, at ne time , meant you were taking the siding and there was a train ahead of you in the siding.

> Unless the rule has changed since I retired nine years ago, the lunar, or white, indication means you are leaving signaled territory and entering non-signalled territory such as a yard.

While I also noticed this was generally the case (SP), it was never specifically so stated in the Rules.

> Based on the response, >R</R, R/L*, and L/R are all Restricting.... just under different individual rulebooks. (*-L = Lunar White).
> In the East, all red above a bottom yellow (R/Y, R/R/Y) also is used for Restricting, as well as R/L and R/L/R.

In route signaling, >R</R, >R</dark, dark/Red, L etc. all mean the same thing: Restricting (L/Red is the same as L).

In speed signaling, those R/Y and R/R/Y aspects mean Restricting. In route signaling, however, they mean something completely different, with no restricted speed component.

All the other variations mentioned depended on the particular RR and location. For example in CTC on the WP, R/L meant proceed at restricted speed into a siding.

ButteStBrakeman Wrote:
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> Red over lunar, at ne time , meant you were taking the siding and there was a train ahead of you in
> the siding.

Or it could mean the siding was non-bonded and the signal system by design could not detect any occupancy in it. The WP had a lot of sidings this way.

Correct - it allows a train to close in behind one ahead of it without having to be talked over the switch by the dispatcher. Many NS control points also now give a restricting signal that did not do so in the past.



toledopatch Wrote:
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> It's not Western, but CSX uses a Lunar White in a
> R/L or R/L/R aspect for Restricting on controlled
> tracks as well. Just saw it multiple times today
> on CSX in NW Ohio.

ble692 Wrote:
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> ButteStBrakeman Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Red over lunar, at ne time , meant you were
> taking the siding and there was a train ahead of
> you in
> > the siding.
>
> Or it could mean the siding was non-bonded and the
> signal system by design could not detect any
> occupancy in it. The WP had a lot of sidings this
> way.

Except I'm talking CTC, including controlled sidings.

Controlled or signaled siding? Just as BLE692 noted on the WP, I've worked territory on MP and NS that was CTC with the sidings not bonded and you entered on a restricting signal. I have also worked territory with signaled sidings (that were bonded of course) and you went in on a diverging approach if siding was unoccupied, or a restricting if a train was in the siding ahead of you.


ButteStBrakeman Wrote:
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>
> Except I'm talking CTC, including controlled
> sidings.

Restricting means exactly that...Proceed at Restricted Speed, which in every rulebook I've seen means to proceed able to stop within one-half your range of vision and able to stop short of anything you can run into or run over.

All these "it means you're going into an unsignaled siding" or "there's a train ahead" responses, while well-meaning, are not entirely correct. Those are all situations where Restricted Speed would be called for, but that is NOT what the signal aspect means.

It means Proceed at Restricted Speed. Period. No more, no less. Doesn't matter WHY you need to go Restricted Speed, only that you must do so.

Restricting is the default indication whenever the signal system cannot give you information on the condition of the track ahead, because either the next block is occupied or, in the case of unsignaled track, there is no next block reporting in. In the fail-safe logic of signaling, when you don't or can't know the condition of the track ahead, it tells you to proceed at your own risk.

BTW, the flashing red aspect started getting popular when LED signal heads first started being used. At least back at that time, there wasn't really a good way to replicate the subtle bluish-white cast of a lunar aspect, so flashing the red became the new standard. It also allows simplification of signal heads so there does not need to be a second head in places where a red-over-lunar would have been the only two-headed aspect required, such as at a simple diamond interlocking.

As we used to say in rules class "If the red is movin', so can you!"

NZ

I don't think anyone intended to hold the meaning of a restricting signal to what you listed, but in the broad sense of the definition you are certainly correct. The reason getting for a restricting signal could be many.


NebraskaZephyr Wrote:
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>>
> All these "it means you're going into an
> unsignaled siding" or "there's a train ahead"
> responses, while well-meaning, are not entirely
> correct. Those are all situations where Restricted
> Speed would be called for, but that is NOT what
> the signal aspect means.