Western Railroad Discussion > Double-Stack Question

What determines whether a well car gets one container (single) or two (double-stack)? Christina in AZ (RailFanAZ) currently shows 3 videos where the UP stack trains have several well cars (3-unit, 5-unit and stand-alones) carrying only one container. What's up?
(I got the fact the flats can only haul one...)

All containers do not weigh the same. Generally speaking, if a well is of a certain capacity and the weight of two containers combined exceeds that capacity, the well will only get one container. Now, there is a lot more that goes into this (number of cantainers going to this trains destination versus wells available, clearance issues on the trains route requiring certain height containers to be single stacked, etc), so take this as a general explaination for some situations instead of a specific answer for all scenarios.

Aren't the containers weighed by the loading device (either crane or lift-truck) so the loaders know the weight installed into each well ? Is the recorded and reported to the R.R. to confirm billed weight ?

These days, container weight is determined by the shipper! Unless there are serious problems trying to load an obviously overweight container onto a train, the declared weight is what is used to determine that the heavier container goes on the bottom. I don't know what the 'cutoff difference' in weight is, but I'm thinking about 2,000-3,000 pound difference will require the heavier box on the bottom. I know from experience, sometimes due to time limitations - such as still have a couple of boxes to load and the crew is waiting to pull that track - it's possible to 'trick' the computer to allow the heavier box on top. Why would we do that? Loading double stacks is typically done by loading all the bottom boxes on the track first, then following the packer down the track, one of the intermodal workers will remove the 7-8 pound IBC (Inter Box Connector) from each of the 4 'holders' at the corner of each bucket (well) and put them in the twist-lock (also lifting) position on the top of each of lifting posts. Note that ALL domestic lifting posts are at 40' spacing, allowing 40', 45', 48' and 53' containers to be double stacked. Interestingly, a pair of '20s can be put in the bottom of a well with only their outside 'end' posts on the pins in the bucket so that any of the larger boxes can be put on top.

As far as why are some cars double stacked, some single, and some empty, that's easy. There aren't enough loads + empties available to go to the destination of that BLOCK of cars. Intermodal trains may consist of any number of blocks, but usually 5 or less. With the change at North Baltimore for CSX, I wouldn't be surprised if intermodal trains will have more, shorter blocks to be dropped/picked up at North Baltimore. One of the changes I've heard is that CSX no longer allows partially filled cars for 'smaller destinations' that previously were moved from car to car at North Baltimore. The result is now it may take several DAYS to accumulate 6 containers for a particular destination (block) before they get loaded. Welcome to precision railroading!

Getting back to why are some loaded/empty...Also, there's still a number of 40' bucket cars running around. 40' containers are the realm of international shipping as everything on the ships is calculated and handled as twenty foot equivalent units (TEUs) as that's what the freighters carry. Having worked at an intermodal ramp that handled only domestic containers, we had no choice but to grumble and gripe when we got 40 footers -(48 foot cars, too...but they're gone now) and we had no choice but to send them out empty. Given the new 'rules' of precision railroading, at least on CSX, I think there will be a reduction of partially filled double stack bucket cars.

Remember, too, that hitch cars (spines) can accomodate 1 container on each platform as well. If you look closely at them, on the 'deck' portions of the car, you'll see small 'sticks into the lifting post' connectors at 40' that the containers will rest upon. The weight of the container is all that keeps them in place, but there is a gravity latch that adds to the 'pull off' resistance for each container. But sometimes one or more of those are damaged, or the hitch (5th wheel, just like a big rig) is damaged and can't be raised up. It must empty. There are countless times that a container will be swapped for a trailer on a hitch car as the hitch won't go up, the trailer won't lock in (same mechanism as a truck), or some other reason. UPS presents a number of problems for loading intermodals. They have a later cutoff time than everyone else, usually as close as 30 minutes before the train must be 'released' and the track ready to pull. Although where I worked got a fax from UPS showing what trailers & containers to expect by sending UPS ramp several hours earlier, many times there would be a 'no show' or a 'surprise' at the gate. As their cutoff time approached, we'd call the sending ramp to verify it really is a no show since they would sometimes send a partially loaded trailer to another ramp to get 'topped off' and put on a different train to the destination, often Norfolk Southern as they had a ramp nearer than CSX to the 'top it off' terminal (usually a hub). So, when there's a no show, we have to put something in that spot, or possibly leave it empty if there's nothing available to go out on that train. Surprises are always fun to handle. We've 'programmed' the train allowing the correct number of spots for UPS and 10-20 minutes before cutoff, here comes a surprise at the gate. Sometimes I'd get a call to expect them, sometimes not. Sometimes they'd arrive an hour or so before cutoff. Either way, if the train or block had everything loaded except for the UPS, we'd have no choice but to take something down and leave it behind.

Then you get into the fun and games of having sufficient empty cars to load all the containers and trailers, or, having too many cars, or too many empties (no every destination 'wants' empties ('pool' container repositions, not privately owned, paid empty transportation 'repos' which go before sending empties). Sometimes, we'd be instructed to send at least some specific quantity of empties. We may end up sending everything we have and not being able to fill out the block. That's life.

And then you get into the fun and games of having to have enough empty track space (feet) to 'land' the next inbound train. It only makes more problems when there's only, say, 7,000 feet of empty track space and 10,000 feet of loaded train is a couple of hours away! Not every intermodal ramp has the luxury of their 'own' dedicated switch crew to move things around. As a result, we'd have to either send out bare cars, just to get rid of them, or, throw ourselves at the mercy of the yardmaster and ask for the long emptied cars to be moved to a holding track so we could land the inbound train. There's times that there was no switch crew available, or, even if we were nearly empty and we only had enough empty cars on site for the next (smaller) outbound train (Q019 - we had 4 tracks of 2300-3100' each), the inbound train was still too big. In that case, there'd be no choice but to leave some of the loaded cars on a yard track inaccessible to our machines. We'd then have to beg the yardmaster to bring them over once we had unloaded a track or so to make space. I always liked his response: "shortly!". Yea, right! Could be 10 minutes from now, could be 10 hours! Meanwhile, we'd have to listen to the truckers cry that have early appointments for their loads we can't get to, and even sometimes the shippers themselves would call!

Intermodal is like a giant chess game. Trying to have enough empty cars of the correct type to load, having enough of the 'right' chassis (some are privately owned, like Schneider and can only be used under Schneider containers), or even having enough space in the yard to park everything. January-March or so is always fun as we'd have to store several hundred empty pool containers that were mostly Christmas business. That's why you'll sometimes see 3-high stacks of empty containers.

I'm glad I retired almost 3 years ago...

BRAtkinson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> These days, container weight is determined by the
> shipper! Unless there are serious problems trying
> to load an obviously overweight container onto a
> train, the declared weight is what is used to
> determine that the heavier container goes on the
> bottom. I don't know what the 'cutoff difference'
> in weight is, but I'm thinking about 2,000-3,000
> pound difference will require the heavier box on
> the bottom. I know from experience, sometimes due
> to time limitations - such as still have a couple
> of boxes to load and the crew is waiting to pull
> that track - it's possible to 'trick' the computer
> to allow the heavier box on top. Why would we do
> that? Loading double stacks is typically done by
> loading all the bottom boxes on the track first,
> then following the packer down the track, one of
> the intermodal workers will remove the 7-8 pound
> IBC (Inter Box Connector) from each of the 4
> 'holders' at the corner of each bucket (well) and
> put them in the twist-lock (also lifting) position
> on the top of each of lifting posts. Note that
> ALL domestic lifting posts are at 40' spacing,
> allowing 40', 45', 48' and 53' containers to be
> double stacked. Interestingly, a pair of '20s can
> be put in the bottom of a well with only their
> outside 'end' posts on the pins in the bucket so
> that any of the larger boxes can be put on top.
>
> As far as why are some cars double stacked, some
> single, and some empty, that's easy. There aren't
> enough loads + empties available to go to the
> destination of that BLOCK of cars. Intermodal
> trains may consist of any number of blocks, but
> usually 5 or less. With the change at North
> Baltimore for CSX, I wouldn't be surprised if
> intermodal trains will have more, shorter blocks
> to be dropped/picked up at North Baltimore. One
> of the changes I've heard is that CSX no longer
> allows partially filled cars for 'smaller
> destinations' that previously were moved from car
> to car at North Baltimore. The result is now it
> may take several DAYS to accumulate 6 containers
> for a particular destination (block) before they
> get loaded. Welcome to precision railroading!
>
> Getting back to why are some loaded/empty...Also,
> there's still a number of 40' bucket cars running
> around. 40' containers are the realm of
> international shipping as everything on the ships
> is calculated and handled as twenty foot
> equivalent units (TEUs) as that's what the
> freighters carry. Having worked at an intermodal
> ramp that handled only domestic containers, we had
> no choice but to grumble and gripe when we got 40
> footers -(48 foot cars, too...but they're gone
> now) and we had no choice but to send them out
> empty. Given the new 'rules' of precision
> railroading, at least on CSX, I think there will
> be a reduction of partially filled double stack
> bucket cars.
>
> Remember, too, that hitch cars (spines) can
> accomodate 1 container on each platform as well.
> If you look closely at them, on the 'deck'
> portions of the car, you'll see small 'sticks into
> the lifting post' connectors at 40' that the
> containers will rest upon. The weight of the
> container is all that keeps them in place, but
> there is a gravity latch that adds to the 'pull
> off' resistance for each container. But sometimes
> one or more of those are damaged, or the hitch
> (5th wheel, just like a big rig) is damaged and
> can't be raised up. It must empty. There are
> countless times that a container will be swapped
> for a trailer on a hitch car as the hitch won't go
> up, the trailer won't lock in (same mechanism as a
> truck), or some other reason. UPS presents a
> number of problems for loading intermodals. They
> have a later cutoff time than everyone else,
> usually as close as 30 minutes before the train
> must be 'released' and the track ready to pull.
> Although where I worked got a fax from UPS showing
> what trailers & containers to expect by sending
> UPS ramp several hours earlier, many times there
> would be a 'no show' or a 'surprise' at the gate.
> As their cutoff time approached, we'd call the
> sending ramp to verify it really is a no show
> since they would sometimes send a partially loaded
> trailer to another ramp to get 'topped off' and
> put on a different train to the destination, often
> Norfolk Southern as they had a ramp nearer than
> CSX to the 'top it off' terminal (usually a hub).
> So, when there's a no show, we have to put
> something in that spot, or possibly leave it empty
> if there's nothing available to go out on that
> train. Surprises are always fun to handle. We've
> 'programmed' the train allowing the correct number
> of spots for UPS and 10-20 minutes before cutoff,
> here comes a surprise at the gate. Sometimes I'd
> get a call to expect them, sometimes not.
> Sometimes they'd arrive an hour or so before
> cutoff. Either way, if the train or block had
> everything loaded except for the UPS, we'd have no
> choice but to take something down and leave it
> behind.
>
> Then you get into the fun and games of having
> sufficient empty cars to load all the containers
> and trailers, or, having too many cars, or too
> many empties (no every destination 'wants' empties
> ('pool' container repositions, not privately
> owned, paid empty transportation 'repos' which go
> before sending empties). Sometimes, we'd be
> instructed to send at least some specific quantity
> of empties. We may end up sending everything we
> have and not being able to fill out the block.
> That's life.
>
> And then you get into the fun and games of having
> to have enough empty track space (feet) to 'land'
> the next inbound train. It only makes more
> problems when there's only, say, 7,000 feet of
> empty track space and 10,000 feet of loaded train
> is a couple of hours away! Not every intermodal
> ramp has the luxury of their 'own' dedicated
> switch crew to move things around. As a result,
> we'd have to either send out bare cars, just to
> get rid of them, or, throw ourselves at the mercy
> of the yardmaster and ask for the long emptied
> cars to be moved to a holding track so we could
> land the inbound train. There's times that there
> was no switch crew available, or, even if we were
> nearly empty and we only had enough empty cars on
> site for the next (smaller) outbound train (Q019 -
> we had 4 tracks of 2300-3100' each), the inbound
> train was still too big. In that case, there'd be
> no choice but to leave some of the loaded cars on
> a yard track inaccessible to our machines. We'd
> then have to beg the yardmaster to bring them over
> once we had unloaded a track or so to make space.
> I always liked his response: "shortly!". Yea,
> right! Could be 10 minutes from now, could be 10
> hours! Meanwhile, we'd have to listen to the
> truckers cry that have early appointments for
> their loads we can't get to, and even sometimes
> the shippers themselves would call!
>
> Intermodal is like a giant chess game. Trying to
> have enough empty cars of the correct type to
> load, having enough of the 'right' chassis (some
> are privately owned, like Schneider and can only
> be used under Schneider containers), or even
> having enough space in the yard to park
> everything. January-March or so is always fun as
> we'd have to store several hundred empty pool
> containers that were mostly Christmas business.
> That's why you'll sometimes see 3-high stacks of
> empty containers.
>
> I'm glad I retired almost 3 years ago...

Thanks for typing all that!  Very informative!

mapboy