Western Railroad Discussion > Question About UP and BNSF Service to San Francisco / Oakland

Good Morning:

Does Union Pacific handle any UPS business from Chicago to Oakland or San Francisco? It seems odd that BNSF handles so much UPS business there, but UP has a more direct route. Is the BNSF route that much faster, or is it a price issue?

Thank you in advance.

PRR_4859 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Good Morning:
>
> Does Union Pacific handle any UPS business from
> Chicago to Oakland or San Francisco? It seems odd
> that BNSF handles so much UPS business there, but
> UP has a more direct route. Is the BNSF route
> that much faster, or is it a price issue?
>
> Thank you in advance.

Until recently UP was handling a little UPS business to Oakland. I vaguely recall hearing that thus business shifted to Lathrop recently.

The main UPS sorting facility for the Bay Area is located on BNSF north of Richmond (BNSF station "North Bay"). UPS has their own ramp there, and BNSF Z trains set out their trains there then proceed light engine into Richmond. This was built in ATSF days when UP-WP and MoP-DRGW-SP routes were not giving ATSF a run for the money. ATSF developed a strong partnership with UPS, and here we are.

Best regards,

Rob L.

UP's service meltdowns after the SP and C&NW mergers didn't help their rep with UPS either.

The last four years or so saw a super hot ZG2OA run on UP into Oakland with UPS traffic. The train now sets out the hot UPS traffic in Lathrop and the remainder of the train travels over Altamont Pass to Oakland. Its counterpart ZOAG2 has been abolished, with the eastbound UPS traffic travelling on the ZLTG2 (or ZLTG2B - I forget which one specifically).

Others probably have more precise information on "why" this change has taken place in the last 6 weeks or so.

A couple years ago, I was told that UP was trying to take the UPS contract from BNSF. UPS was reportedly unhappy with ontime service with BNSF. Supposedly the UP traffic would have been offloaded/loaded in Oakland and trucked to North Bay. At the time, among other things, BNSF was suffering from a lot of weather related delays on the southern route, while the overland route was clear. BNSF won out, tightening up on schedules.

Even the BNSF Z trains drop a significant amount of the UPS traffic at Mariposa (Stockton) on the way to Richmond. Not unusual to see a BNSF z train with 5 units and less than 10 wells/platforms coming into Richmond. The trains are longer into Richmond around Christmas.

Gary

Posted from iPhone

Saw what was probably the ZG2OA pass Rochelle yesterday with around 40 trailers, many of them UPS. Also a lot of UPS containers. I don't think the business has ever been better than right now, albeit to Lathrop, not OA.

Per slug96 in July in this thread 
<https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,4330700,4330795#msg-4330795&gt;"I'll have to double check, but the Z WSPNBY9 [Willow Springs near Chicago to North Bay near SFO] has a 54 hour guarantee for loading and unload packages." Anyone know how UP compares, Lathrop-Chicago?  UP is trying hard to keep the UPS traffic.  They have been known to run a few cars of UPS in special trains after they missed their pick up and/or had mechanical problems.  Note UP hauls a lot of UPS unseen in EMP containers.

mapboy

Simply put, UP in the present day doesn't care about customers or business growth. They care about keeping rates high on captive customers and improving their operating ratio to raise their share price. This came right from the horses mouth when Lance Fritz, Rob Knight, Cameron Scott and the rest of the UP upper management cartel were visiting our service unit for a town hall. UPS and intermodal have low profit margins and thus, the traffic will continue to flow to the BNSF year over year, regardless of their other shortcomings. I used to be proud to work for UP......now, I'm disgusted by it. UP is a horrible company with horrible management and they are running the company into the ground nose first. Expect to see more and more traffic; UPS, Intermodal, Bulk, and carload freight being hauled via BNSF regardless of whether the routing is better or not.

SPMemphisFreight Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Saw what was probably the ZG2OA pass Rochelle
> yesterday with around 40 trailers, many of them
> UPS. Also a lot of UPS containers. I don't think
> the business has ever been better than right now,
> albeit to Lathrop, not OA.

That was probably either a ZG1BR or ZGISC as the ZG2OAs usually handle most of the UPS traffic in EMP/UMAX containers. And you also have to realize that a lot of the UPS traffic on the ZG2OAs/ZLTG2s goes to/from the Reno/Sparks area, especially at this time of the year.

As far as why UP made the changes recently with the Oakland UPS business in moving it to Lathrop, I have no idea what is going on there, and also why the ZG2OAs were not changed to the Lathrop symbol like the ebs are now.

SPMemphisFreight Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Saw what was probably the ZG2OA pass Rochelle
> yesterday with around 40 trailers, many of them
> UPS. Also a lot of UPS containers. I don't think
> the business has ever been better than right now,
> albeit to Lathrop, not OA.

Most of those UPS trailers (and containers) should be near the rear of the train.

They are setout in Sparks so most of them don't make it to Oakland, or even Lathrop.

SPSF Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> As far as why UP made the changes recently with
> the Oakland UPS business in moving it to Lathrop,
> I have no idea what is going on there, and also
> why the ZG2OAs were not changed to the Lathrop
> symbol like the ebs are now.


The latter part of this is the only part I can understand, since once the setout is made at Lathrop, the train does continue over Altamont Pass and on in to Oakland where it terminates - so the symbol at least makes sense to me. The traffic that used to be on the ZOAG2 heads east on the KOAG2 via the Cal P.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/17 15:05 by JamesSchlinger.

HogheadMike Wrote:
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> This came right from the horses mouth when Lance Fritz, Rob Knight,
> Cameron Scott and the rest of the UP upper management cartel
> were visiting our service unit for a town hall.

(snip)

> I used to be proud to work for UP......now, I'm disgusted by it.
> UP is a horrible company with horrible management and they
> are running the company into the ground nose first.

Takes guts to say that in public. Thank you for doing it.

Cyborgs (which run many businesses and agencies today) ignore employee morale as the key to productivity. Instead, they resort to oppression using "data" to force "efficiency."

While decline of manufacturing in the Bay Area can be blamed as the major reason why railroad traffic continues to decline, BNSF + UPS continuing to do business shows UP's inferiority as a railroad. Let's see how far they can go running as a virtual business, which is essentially a hedge fund pretending to be a railroad, focusing on ratios, metrics, and other numerologies.

I had an interesting conversation with a guy working in logistics, who told me stories of how "college educated" managers kept failing, because they were trapped in theories and numbers, instead of actually KNOWING how the business worked.

Mandatory RR content:
It is really sad that the UP does not seem to care at all
about either their employees or their customers. I rmemember
back in the early 80s -- and this is from a mere railfan who
never worked for them or for any other RR -- that they seemed
to be a great railroad, and their employees seemed to enjoy
working for the UP. Ditto most other RRs back then. I miss
those days.....

Now -- my comments on the issues raised here:

HogheadMike and cchan006 --
Thank you very, very much for your words of wisdom
and courage!

I have been saying the same general things for a long
time now: the main problem in Corporate America is the
horrid morals and priorities the top execs seem to have.
They value *only* accumulating vast amounts of money and
power. They seem to have lost sight of what is most
important and fun about being human.

And the toxic crap that is being taught in business
schools all over America -- that human needs are NOT
important at ALL, that you do NOT have to know ANYTHING
or care at all about a company's core business in order
to be an excellent manager in that company, that the ONLY
thing that matters is the company's quarterly stock prices,
that your employees are economic liabilities ad NOT assets,
and that your customers' needs to NOT matter at ALL --
has destroyed most of what is good ab out this country.

Real competition between companies whose top execs really
cared about the quality of the goods they made or the services
the provided, and who really cared about their employees and
customers, and about the communities they are located in,
if all that were true now, none of us would have much to
complain about. Which I would LOVE!

But, here we are, in a country most of whose businesses are
run by people who never learned to enjoy sharing with others.
As I like to say, they ALL should go back to nursery school
and stay there util they can prove to the real adults in
charge that they really DO enjoy sharing with others.

There are a lot of really good, decent people in every company,
including the UP and all the other railroads. They just need to
again be valued and respected by their employers, and ditto the
customers -- they all need to be valued and respected, too.

My huge thanks to all railroaders for their endless dedication
and doing their job under very difficult conditions, and for
sacrificing their home lives so this country can keep functioning.
Thank you for your service!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/17 16:21 by Margaret_SP_fan.

cchan006 Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------
>
> I had an interesting conversation with a guy
> working in logistics, who told me stories of how
> "college educated" managers kept failing, because
> they were trapped in theories and numbers, instead
> of actually KNOWING how the business worked.

It's not just UP. Look at GE. Once the top became MBA territory, and quarterly results determine the bonus, its time to establish the chopping block.

SPSF Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SPMemphisFreight Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Saw what was probably the ZG2OA pass Rochelle
> > yesterday with around 40 trailers, many of them
> > UPS. Also a lot of UPS containers. I don't
> think
> > the business has ever been better than right
> now,
> > albeit to Lathrop, not OA.
>
> That was probably either a ZG1BR or ZGISC as the
> ZG2OAs usually handle most of the UPS traffic in
> EMP/UMAX containers. And you also have to realize
> that a lot of the UPS traffic on the ZG2OAs/ZLTG2s
> goes to/from the Reno/Sparks area, especially at
> this time of the year.

I'm pretty sure it was the OA. It's not hard to tell the trains apart past Rochelle after watching and listening for awhile. The OA carries marine containers, K Line and others, mixed with domestic boxes and generally had one or two UPS, ABF, YRC and several RRA trailers. But after the change it's been carrying a lot more trailers, especially UPS.

The Brooklyn carries no marine boxes and is also getting longer. Friday train had roughly 50 trailers, including Fed Ex and good variety. Almost like it was before BNSF stole most of the trailers back after they got their northern line fixed.

Salt Lake westbound passes at night and is hard to see. Eastbound usually in daylight there. It does carry a lot of UPS.


>
> As far as why UP made the changes recently with
> the Oakland UPS business in moving it to Lathrop,
> I have no idea what is going on there, and also
> why the ZG2OAs were not changed to the Lathrop
> symbol like the ebs are now.


Mystery to me too.

cchan006 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> SPMemphisFreight Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Saw what was probably the ZG2OA pass Rochelle
> > yesterday with around 40 trailers, many of them
> > UPS. Also a lot of UPS containers. I don't
> think
> > the business has ever been better than right
> now,
> > albeit to Lathrop, not OA.
>
> Most of those UPS trailers (and containers) should
> be near the rear of the train.
>
> They are setout in Sparks so most of them don't
> make it to Oakland, or even Lathrop.


Yes, they were. So all set off in Sparks?

Couldnt agree more about the UP. I said this years ago and got shouted down by the UP lovers.

Would love to see a shortline operator in my back yard, that makes money on local business and cared about growing it.

UP isn't a good neighbor the way they approach things, shunning little shipments, etc. You would think HH is running the show. Hadn't their loss of coal awakened them? They are arrogant, and coupled with wall street pressure, they may technically be correct, but word on the street if you want service you locate along the BNSF if your a small guy, unless you want some ridiculous surcharge or something. They just want easy work, easy cash, shame on you UP.

Great posts! It sound like the "Dick Davidson mentality" has returned to the UP with a vengeance...

ShastaDaylight

Thanks Margaret.

BTW, I work for a Cal State University. It is the same here.