Western Railroad Discussion > NS Conductor deciding on switch to UP vs BNSF - CA

I am from the San Francisco Bay Area, CA.  I've worked as a CO for Norfolk Southern on the East Coast for a couple years.  I'm ready to move back to CA.  UP is currently hiring in Oakland and Martinez CA, but I was warned against UP over BNSF.  I'm wondering if I should wait to be hired with BNSF. 

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***SPECIFIC ANSWERS***  would be helpful

• So unlike NS, these two companies are part of the National Agreement?  How does that work?  For the NS jobs I work, they are paid either on either mileage or a basic day + overtime.  COs make 60-100k a year depending on the jobs and how much they work. 
• What are the Bay Area/Sac area terminals like - how many boards/pools are at each terminal, what are the pools like?, average annual salary based on seniority, what hiring/furloughs are looking like that those terminals, how many people work at these terminals, which would be best to qualify at.  Since, UP is hiring in Oakland, I'm particularly interested in more info about this terminal and how easy it would be for me to transfer to Roseville.  They're hiring in Martinez, but I imagine hiring in a smaller terminal wouldn't be a good idea, am I right? The ideal terminal would have yard, local, short/long pool work to choose from, so I could bounce around based on what works best for my life at the moment (more money or more time at home). 
  
  • UP
    
    • Oakland
    • Roseville
    • Martinez
    • etc
  • BNSF
    
    • Richmond
    • Sacramento
    • Stockton
    • etc
•  I heard when you are hired at UP you can only make seniority moves to other terminals within a region (the western region would include all of CA, parts of NV, CO, OR NM, AZ etc, right?), whereas I've heard BNSF you can keep your seniority no matter where you move, is that true?
• Attendance policies -  What are they like?  This is important to me.  NS attendance looks at your last 60 days, watches for mark off patterns, and then does a year end review.  Do both of these rail carriers respect FMLA? NS does, but I heard from someone who works for CSX that they were really snooping on workers use of FMLA.  I heard BNSF was strict on attendance, is that true?
• Right now at NS COs have the ability to temp and bid jobs, so there's flexibility to work more or less by making seniority moves, whereas engineers are on the PWS system, must put in a bid for the week, and cannot do any of that temping funny business.  What is it like for NS and UP?
• Layoffs - Are people being furloughed?  What to expect? 
• Rule enforcement -  Where I am, people are really disgruntled at NS about the increased punishment by management.   I've heard this same sentiment from a UP worker in CA who said to hire with BNSF.  I'm wondering if BNSF is actually any better. 
• How much vacation do you get by seniority?
• Guarantee pay - how much?
• Anything else is so welcome, I'll probably still have a lot of questions.  

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Thanks so much! This is important to me, so DETAILED responses would be appreciated. 



 



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/18 12:46 by coast_to_coast.

BNSF. Don't think about it just do it.

Posted from Android

BNSF is sooo much better than UP to work for. I've heard plenty of horror stories about what working for UP is like, and they have a computer system right out of the stone age!

Ted Curphey
Ontario, OR

its a crap shoot, right now bnsf may be the best choice, a new ceo may come in, at some time in your career, and the whole situation can change in a blink of an eye, better or worse, just be glad hunter harrison's dead, just worry about anybody that drank his koolaid 

1. BNSF
2. Amtrak
3. Unemployment
4. UP

Why? Can you answer any specific questions? 

The NS terminal I'm at has very low morale - so I expect this anywhere really - but the pay/benefits/pension is still enough for me to want to keep working for the RR for now. 

BNSF isn't even hiring in the Bay Area right now, so I'd be waiting for an indeterminate amount of time.

Hi Ted,

I've heard the rumors about BN being better, but I have no concrete info.  Could you answer any of my specific questions about BNSF? Like the one about whether your seniority stays with you throughout the whole BNSF system?  And how's the attendance policy?

BNSF isn't even hiring in the Bay Area right now, so I'd be waiting for an indeterminate amount of time. 

Thanks!

Bnsf’s system seniority agreement covers Cali. My advice if they aren’t hiring in N. Cal is to get in a class where you can, preferably on the BN side because they don’t have a 5 year hold (they can recall you to your hire out terminal on the ATSF side if they are short manpower) and then when you get out of class, head to California if you can hold

Posted from iPhone

OK - it sounds like there's a BNSF and an ATSF side that have different agreements about seniorirty?  Let me know if you have any links to read about this.

Hypothetically, if BN was hiring in WA, I could train there, and then as soon as I can hold at a terminal in CA, I can go to work there?   Is WA part of the BN side?  If it is, you're saying they WOULD NOT be able to recall me to my hire terminal?

I imagine I would have to qualify at the new terminal unpaid?  How much red tape is there to make a transfer like that?

Thank you for sharing!

SantaFe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bnsf’s system seniority agreement covers Cali.
> My advice if they aren’t hiring in N. Cal is to
> get in a class where you can, preferably on the BN
> side because they don’t have a 5 year hold (they
> can recall you to your hire out terminal on the
> ATSF side if they are short manpower) and then
> when you get out of class, head to California if
> you can hold
>
> Posted from iPhone

BN side BLET engineers have system seniority since at least 1991, UTU Trainman did not at all when I worked on CBQ side, a long time ago. BNSF has better maintained, cleaner power, stronger labor unions, better agreements, more liberal attendence policy which is actually specified in writing, more potential days off on EB, better technical training at JCCC. BN and ATSF sides have different General Chairman and their own/different agreements because they were two different Class 1 railroads until late 95/early 1996. GO with BNSF, far better railroad. 
http://0872.utu.org/Files/%5B2725%5D1990%20BN%20Transfer%20Agreement.pdf

http://www.bletgca.org/documents/agreements/bn_other/atsf/ATSF%20System%20Seniority%20Agreement.pdf



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/18 10:47 by OldHeadRailroader.

Prior GN, NP, and SP&S territories do NOT have conductor system seniority like the former ATSF, CB&Q, FW&D, and Frisco territories do. Former CB&Q, FW&D, and Frisco terminals do not have a 5 year primary recall like the former ATSF terminals do. Engineer system seniority does NOT exist on either side yet though the BN has a seniority transfer agreement that allows you to keep your seniority date one time. The attendence policy differs depending on if you're working in unassigned service or assigned service, I understand it is one of the most lienent attendence policies of all Class Ones. Officials are hiding out testing with drones, pretending to be signal or track dept employees, and of course the lovely inward facing cameras. Morale is probably no different than any other railroad these days.

Milw_E70 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Prior GN, NP, and SP&S territories do NOT have
> conductor system seniority like the former ATSF,
> CB&Q, FW&D, and Frisco territories do. Former
> CB&Q, FW&D, and Frisco terminals do not have a 5
> year primary recall like the former ATSF terminals
> do. Engineer system seniority does NOT exist on
> either side yet though the BN has a seniority
> transfer agreement that allows you to keep your
> seniority date one time. The attendence policy
> differs depending on if you're working in
> unassigned service or assigned service, I
> understand it is one of the most lienent
> attendence policies of all Class Ones. Officials
> are hiding out testing with drones, pretending to
> be signal or track dept employees, and of course
> the lovely inward facing cameras. Morale is
> probably no different than any other railroad
> these days.

Thanks for the info!

In my lifetime, I'm probably only interested in working in the North - Northwest territories - was that all just BN before the merger?  So if it's a transfer within the North - Northwest territory - like from WA or OR to CA or vice versa as a Conductor, what ability to transfer would I have?  Would I have a one-time transfer and keep my seniority?



1. North - Northwest (British Columbia, California, Idaho, Montana, Oregon, Washington)

What territories were these before the merger?
2. South - Los Angeles ( California)
3. South - California (Arizona, California, Colorado, New Mexico, Texas)

.

 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/18 08:40 by darkcloud.

> In my lifetime, I'm probably only interested in
> working in the North - Northwest territories - was
> that all just BN before the merger?  So if it's a
> transfer within the North - Northwest territory -
> like from WA or OR to CA or vice versa as a
> Conductor, what ability to transfer would I
> have?  Would I have a one-time transfer and keep
> my seniority?
>
CA side has system wide seniority.  OR and WA would be a closed district.  Typically they make a conductor work 3 years then they let them transfer.  But you loose all your seniority when you transfer.   BNSF is pretty busy right now so they might let you transfer faster.  
Availability...
BNSF has a 3 month rolling period for attendance.  You can lay off 75% or weekends and weekdays.  That boils down to 5 weekdays and 2 weekend days a month.  That's on call 24/7 pools, extra boards.  Assigned service (regular job) you get 1 layoff day a month. 
Many people have FML.  Several people have been fired and snooped on.  But they took every weekend off.  They base it on the hours you work the previous year (I'm pretty sure) 
Super pools...
Most the former BN territories have (or will have soon) super pools.  They gut most the pool agreements and create a non guaranteed self protecting pool designed to protect all directions in the terminal.  Most the time you get out on your rest.  No more long runs with time off between trips.  They haven't done this on the former SF (yet).  I'm sure its coming.  
Furloughs...
Every place is humming right now.  They can't seem to hire enough.  But if the economy goes down, you most likely will be furloughed.  Try and find a place that's busy to start out.  
Rule enforcement...
Depends on the local managers.  Some are trying to climb and don't care who they step on.  With technology, everything is monitored very closely now.  Most yards are covered in HD cameras.  




 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/18 13:00 by Pinlifter.

http://blet622.com/uploads/3/2/2/9/3229372/bletonprop2007.pdf

On the UP, just like on any railroad, the bigger ponds are harder to get bumped out of. Small terminals tend to take more seniority.

UP Roseville Hub has the following as home terminals for trainmen/switchmen:

Roseville
Sparks
Winnemucca
Portola
Oroville
Redding
Dunsmuir
Klamath Falls
South San Francisco
Oakland
Ozol (Martinez)
Benicia
Warm Springs
Milpitas
San Jose
Watsonville
San Luis Obispo
Gaudalupe
Sacramento (West Sacramento, Polk)
Stockton
Lathrop
Tracy
Fresno
Bakersfield
Mojave
Vulcan

One thing to watch out for if working on the UP in the Bay Area is the fact that there are only locals and yard jobs home terminaled there. The pool jobs into the Bay Area are either home terminaled in Roseville or San Luis Obispo. Consider what those type of jobs make in relation to the cost of living...

From the perspective of a retired former UP Condr. and SP until the end, everything said above about going to the BNSF is correct!

"Layoff 75% weekdays vs weekends," on the UP if you lay off about three times in 6 months, they will start discipline!   But don't count on getting your personal leave days when you ask for them either.  Definitely not on a weekend...

UP seniority is "Hub and Spoke."  LA  and West Colton go East, but don't include San Luis Obispo or Bakersfield, even though the pools out of LA go there.  Roseville includes SLO, Fresno, Bkfld, Sparks NV, Dusmuir, Portola.  No moves outside of your hub.   Train svc can bid anywhere in the hub, eng are almost stuck in their terminals.
You won't find ANY former SPs that don't hate the UP, me included.  Wait until you get a switch tag failure because you didn't take the tag out soon enough!  (This from a manager who isn't a qualified conductor, and doesn't understand trailing tonnage, so he builds a mountain train with four ACs on the head end, and ONE on the rear, and doesn't understand why I won't take it.)

Portland is the next hub, and I don't know anything about it.

In 1999 I watched the UP hire and train 50 conductors, while two or three conductors couldn't work anywhere in the hub.  Several of them rode several student trips with me, and I told them not to quit their day jobs.  They all asked why are we being trained if we don't have work?  I told them I don't know, it doesn't make sense to those of us who can hold a job.   Once they were all qualified, they were all laid off, and a year and a half later when they had work,  TWO   returned, and didn't remember a thing from a year and a half before.

Hire on with the UP now, and go to the BNSF when you can?
G

i am curious, 

how close to holding the following are you at the n.s.:

1.  extra board.   is the n.s.'s extra-board guaranteed?

2.  pool freight conductor.  what are the routes pool conductors hold and the related mileage?

3.  yard jobs.  can you hold them?  if not i presume they are high seniority?

4.  engine service.  how close are you from going into engine service?

5.  as it stands now, do you stand a good chance of NOT being furloughed if you stay where you are?

66

SantaFe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bnsf’s system seniority agreement covers Cali.
> My advice if they aren’t hiring in N. Cal is to
> get in a class where you can, preferably on the BN
> side because they don’t have a 5 year hold (they
> can recall you to your hire out terminal on the
> ATSF side if they are short manpower) and then
> when you get out of class, head to California if
> you can hold
>
> Posted from iPhone

This.   Plus, as also mentioned, BNSF system seniority for trainmen does not include former GN, NP, and SP&S territory, so avoid those areas.

Engineers have smaller districts on BNSF, so only hire as an engineer at a terminal you want to work at.  Also, the "system" seniority that BNSF engineers have requires management approval for a transfer between districts.  This means that if management approves transfers of older engineers you could lose slots unexpectedly.  Some engineers have transferred their seniority several times and are, to put it mildly, not popular.

BSB    

As a current BNSF employee with 17 years of service I will throw my 2 cents in. The gist of the seniority is that if you hire out on the  BN side say in OR or WA and want to go to CA you lose all of your seniority and start over on the ATSF side. Doesn’t matter if it’s trainman or engineer. Same holds true if you go from CA to the Pacific Northwest. Engineers working on any former BN property to another former BN property can transfer to another seniority district as many times as they want providing they approve the transfer. I have seen it first hand as we have an engineer that came out to Oregon where I work from Wyoming back in 1999. He then went back to Wyoming shortly thereafter and they let him transfer from Wyoming back out here again in 2007. The second time was protested by the union out here but to no avail. As far as the “super pools” that all depends on how the local union reps want to handle it. They implemented ours where I work and we made out very well as our reps went to the table to bargain and get us the best deal. Other terminals that have fought it have ended up getting whatever the carrier wanted implemented upon them and that’s that. As one last thought I have a close friend that is an engineer for the UP in Sparks NV. He has a 3/05 engineer date with them and I have a 3/05 engineer date with BNSF. He is one of the bottom engineers seniority wise in the terminal and goes back and forth between working as an engineer and conductor. I am on the engineers extra board right now and am #1 in seniority out of 15 and can also hold a pool job fairly well. I haven’t worked as a conductor in over 7 years. Sure there are bumps in the road and ups and downs seniority wise but it seems like my seniority goes a lot farther on my side of the street. Both have pros and cons but I don’t regret my decision and would do it all over again. We also seem to have quite a bit more employee morale too. I have ridden UP trains to stay qualified to Dunsmuir and they were on the Gateway Sub last summer. I seemed to notice a real us vs them attitude on their side and had one engineer ask why the hell we were all so happy all the time lol. At present it seems like we are hiring more up here in the PNW vs CA. We have conductor classes going right now in pretty much every terminal. Best of luck on whatever you choose!