Western Railroad Discussion > Teaching air brake skills

The Sherman Hill NTSB thread has circled around the use of air brakes and train management. And, whether carriers adequately instruct and reinforce good train management awareness. Aggravated by automated systems designed for average conditions.

One experienced engineer lamented the lack of good training on complex territories like Sherman Hill. Undulating terrain, where the power and head end may be on a down hill while the rest of the train has yet to crest a rise.

Are these conditions something for which awareness can be taught? Or is it an on the job process?

Posted from Android

I suspect slack management as part of good train handling went away with the departure of cabooses. If not, at least the training for it did.

Posted from Android

Darren Boes
Lethbridge, AB
Southern Alberta Railfan

sarailfan Wrote:
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> I suspect slack management as part of good train handling went away with the departure of cabooses.
> If not, at least the training for it did.
>
> Posted from Android


Amen to that!!!

I learned when we had cabooses and even 30 years later I still ran like I had a caboose even though FRED doesn't complain about train handling.

Railbaron Wrote:
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> I learned when we had cabooses and even 30 years
> later I still ran like I had a caboose even though
> FRED doesn't complain about train handling.

Unfortunately using techniques such as stretch braking these days will get you discipline. Any kind of deep set will get you discipline. Craft instructors aren't even allowed to impart "old school" train handling techniques if they conflict with the carrier's 'fuel conservation' mandates. But the trains keep getting longer and heavier, and are often built improperly. The carrier's answer to their lack of proper train building and adequate engineer training is to DP everything. But if you get a crappy train and no DPs, a knuckle or drawbar is in your future. Or worse.

When trains got over 125 cars or so in other than flat territory the engineers pretty much lost control of the rear 15-25 cars especially if there was a block of 20 loads 75 cars or more back. The best you could do was try to keep those from running in coming off a hump and bunching the slack on the cars ahead going slower. Then you might get some iron when it all stretched out again.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/18 07:33 by fbe.

Back when I hired out I was told and taught that if you give the brothers on the caboose a good ride you'll give the train a good ride and if you didn't they would let you know about it. There are good engineers who can do that and there are others who are in the wrong line of work because they just don't have the feel in the seat of their pants for it or don't want to bother to try to cultivate it because the incentive is no longer there.

WE had an old Conductor on the Pensacola Division of the Old L&N use to say he could tell the differene between "Car pullers" and "Locomotive Engineers" by the ride on the caboose.
I took pride on being one of the Engineers.
The way we were taught train handling is a lost art.
Had newer "Cub /Engineers" straight out of "school" who were not taught how to start a train. Put it in number one, release the independent and let her go. I was taught to watch the ground and control the start with a little throttle modulation or light independent until the caboose moved.
And be careful you did not piss away your air "cycle braking" was another skill.
What a difference in the culture from then to now!

Steve Panzik
Chiloquin, Or



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/18 11:20 by ln844south.

And to think that in the steam days, they didn't have dynamics!  It was all done with the train brake, using retarders going down long grades!

CZ10 Wrote:
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> And to think that in the steam days, they didn't
> have dynamics!  It was all done with the train
> brake, using retarders going down long grades!

True, but then don't forget the huge number of Carmen required to constantly change-out all those worn cast iron brake shoes!

This is one of the most interesting posts I have read on TO to date. It seems this topic is at the center of “railroading” and one that has always fascinated me particularly during my relatively brief experience on the SP back in the late ‘60’s amenearly 70’s. I marveled at how most engineers rather effortlessly it seemed, handled our trains over various types of terrain......with a rear end crew. How they do it now with the latest and greatest in hardware and equipment is just as amazing to me.

But there were those who weren’t quite as talented; witness nicknames like “sugar butt”, “earthquake”, “thunder britches”, etc...

Ah, the good old days!!!

BB in Spokane

Posted from iPhone

No question there were good engineers and bad engineers with respect to train handling and air brake usage. 

On our territory we had an engineer who could tell you exactly where to plug a train at every siding to be able to stop short of a red signal - that fact alone should tell you a lot. I hated working with him as a fireman and would avoid running for him when I did because of his "unorthodox" train handling ideas. I can't imagine what it was like to ride behind him. Well, I guess if he knocked them down he'd pick them right back up a few minutes later with the slack.

trainjunkie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Railbaron Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I learned when we had cabooses and even 30
> years
> > later I still ran like I had a caboose even
> though
> > FRED doesn't complain about train handling.
>
> Unfortunately using techniques such as stretch
> braking these days will get you discipline. Any
> kind of deep set will get you discipline. Craft
> instructors aren't even allowed to impart "old
> school" train handling techniques if they conflict
> with the carrier's 'fuel conservation' mandates.
> But the trains keep getting longer and heavier,
> and are often built improperly. The carrier's
> answer to their lack of proper train building and
> adequate engineer training is to DP everything.
> But if you get a crappy train and no DPs, a
> knuckle or drawbar is in your future. Or worse.
unfortunately you are correct.  Management by disipline doesn't work. So much for the rule safety first.  But there hope when you get old enough to be in the K M A club.

In the old days your main goal was to manage slack to avoid damage claims to the freight and the rear end crew.
Now fuel conservation is king even if you do damage the freight and equipment doing it.

PHall Wrote:
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> In the old days your main goal was to manage slack to avoid damage claims to the freight and the rear end crew.
> Now fuel conservation is king even if you do damage the freight and equipment doing it.

And the engineer is caught in the middle: try power braking to control slack and face discipline, break the train in two by doing "fuel conservation" handling on some of these very poorly built trains and have a seperation and he still gets disciplined.

trainjunkie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Railbaron Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I learned when we had cabooses and even 30
> years
> > later I still ran like I had a caboose even
> though
> > FRED doesn't complain about train handling.
>
> Unfortunately using techniques such as stretch
> braking these days will get you discipline. Any
> kind of deep set will get you discipline. Craft
> instructors aren't even allowed to impart "old
> school" train handling techniques if they conflict
> with the carrier's 'fuel conservation' mandates.
> But the trains keep getting longer and heavier,
> and are often built improperly. The carrier's
> answer to their lack of proper train building and
> adequate engineer training is to DP everything.
> But if you get a crappy train and no DPs, a
> knuckle or drawbar is in your future. Or worse.


Unless they've changed the rules since 2011, "stretch braking" can be used under certain conditions while "power braking" - above Run 4 - is prohibited.

You guys forget.......Fuel Conservation is paramount. Just go slower.! Stretch all you want when you need to:)

Posted from iPhone

Railbaron Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> On our territory we had an engineer who could tell
> you exactly where to plug a train at every siding
> to be able to stop short of a red signal - that
> fact alone should tell you a lot. I hated working
> with him as a fireman and would avoid running for
> him when I did because of his "unorthodox" train
> handling ideas. I can't imagine what it was like
> to ride behind him. Well, I guess if he knocked
> them down he'd pick them right back up a few
> minutes later with the slack.

I worked with a BN Montana Division locomotive operator who would start screaming on the radio if he could see flashing yellow (which, in central Montana might be three signals down the line), would be on the radio in a panic on yellow, and might or might not fit in a siding he train should have fit in. One day, I was out on the road and the head man and I were talking about train handling and some of the things going on that I couldn't explain. This guy came up in the discussion. The head man said that the guy in question only really knew how to stop a train at Havre and Whitefish. Anyplace else was a new game every time. He would go into a panic at the sight of flashing yellow and beyond that on yellow, making a full service reduction AND full dynamic. He could get stopped short of the red for sure, but it might be thousands of feet short.

We had a guy working the old AMTK 793-794 between Seattle and Vancouver BC. Even with a generous schedule, he would lose a bunch of time every trip. Finally, in response to dispatcher complaints, the Road Foreman, who had come from Chicago suburban service, went for a ride to see what the guy was doing wrong. He spent a trip watching as the guy would have the train down to 15 mph by the close end of the platform and creep down to the spot. The next trip, the Road Foreman tried to teach the guy how to handle a short passenger train. He landed in Edmonds like he would handle a dinky: full service, hit the close end of the platform around 35 mph and stop the train right at the door of the station.That frightened the engineer so bad that the RFE ran the rest of the trip and the engineer went back to freight service on arrival back in Seattle.

On the other hand, I worked with an engineer running AMTK 7-8 between Whitefish and HAvre that lost time west of Glacier Park and Whitefish on every trip on No 7. I finally had to ride with him to find out why. Coming out of Glacier PArk, he looked at his watch and took the speed down by 5-10 mph. I asked him why. He told me the diner just opened and the track between Glacier Park and Whitefish wasn't as good as it used to be, so he was giving the folks in the diner a better ride. How could I put that on a delay report? (hint: truth is often not acceptable to management - too difficult to understand I was told)

TAW

Chico43 Wrote:
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> Unless they've changed the rules since 2011, "stretch braking" can be used under certain
> conditions while "power braking" - above Run 4 - is prohibited.

There in a nutshell are the problems with how railroads want things done: "under certain conditions" leaves it open to interpretations by managers and restricting you to Run 4 doesn't allow you to really control slack - stupid!!!

> I suspect slack management as part of good train handling went away with the departure of cabooses.

Bingo, although management's singular, monomaniacal preoccupation with fuel conservation also played a big role.

> True, but then don't forget the huge number of Carmen required to constantly change-out all those worn cast iron brake shoes!

Don't composition shoes wear out too?

> On our territory we had an engineer who could tell you exactly where to plug a train at every siding to be able to stop short of a red signal - that fact alone should tell you a lot

Jack Durnell?

EtoinShrdlu Wrote:
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> >On our territory we had an engineer who could tell you exactly where to plug a train at every
> > siding to be able to stop short of a red signal that fact alone should tell you a lot
>
> Jack Durnell?

No, Oregon Division, Cascade Subdivision, Mike H*****d. (won't give his full last name out of respect for his privacy).