Western Railroad Discussion > When a Train is Tied Down Question

Ok dispatcher puts a train in a siding because HOS are expiring. Relief crew not yet available so crew ties down the train gets in the limo/van and heads in to sign out.
What exactly is done before the crew leaves the train by itself to prevent vandals or kids from trying to “operate” the train or make it start rolling on its on ?

Posted from iPhone

Secure with tested handbrakes and lock cab if possible.

If the train is going to be tied down for some length of time they'd also kill the power and pull trhe battery
switch and the obvious thing with the reverser handle.

Out

johnambrose Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ok dispatcher puts a train in a siding because HOS
> are expiring. Relief crew not yet available so
> crew ties down the train gets in the limo/van and
> heads in to sign out.
> What exactly is done before the crew leaves the
> train by itself to prevent vandals or kids from
> trying to “operate” the train or make it start
> rolling on its on ?

What you are asking is covered in the air brake and train handling (AB&TH) rules of each railroad and unlike the
General Code of Operating Rules which has been adopted by many railroads, (primarily in the western states),
may vary from one property to another. 

On the BNSF, using their April 7, 2010 edition of AB&TH rules which was in effect when I retired, the rule
regarding securing an unattended train with the locomotive attached required:

1. Secure equipment against undesired movement which means, in addition to applying hand brakes on cars, all locomotive
    hand brakes on the lead consist must be applied and count toward the total number of hand brakes required. BNSF also
    supplied a table to use if the minimum number is not known.
2. Release all air brakes including the locomotive independent air brakes. If train does not move after all air brakes have released,
    then the hand brakes applied can be said to be sufficient. If the train moves then you must apply additional hand brakes and repeat
    the process until the train remains stopped with all air brakes released. 

The securing of locomotives left unattended outside of mechanical facilities is covered in another rule that includes 13 steps, one of which
is the releasing of the independent air brake to determine the hand brakes will prevent movement.

Charlie
       

How does the HOS work in relation to tying down the train.  Do they have to allow time before the 12th hour for the conductor to walk the train and secure enough cars to be safe?   With the monster trains UP has been operating it seems like they would need to allow an hour for the crew to apply enough handbrakes to secure the train.
 

wingomann Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How does the HOS work in relation to tying down
> the train.  Do they have to allow time before the
> 12th hour for the conductor to walk the train and
> secure enough cars to be safe?   With the monster
> trains UP has been operating it seems like they
> would need to allow an hour for the crew to apply
> enough handbrakes to secure the train.

Securing the train is part of performing service, therefore it has to be done before your HOS is up..


SP8100

No they wouldn’t. Not the lead locomotive atleast. Unless you want to be airtesting the train again....

callum_out Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If the train is going to be tied down for some
> length of time they'd also kill the power and pull
> trhe battery
> switch and the obvious thing with the reverser
> handle.
>
> Out

Posted from iPhone

callum_out Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If the train is going to be tied down for some
> length of time they'd also kill the power and pull
> trhe battery switch and the obvious thing with the reverser
> handle.

It varies from carrier to carrier but never this unless they plan to do a new Class 1 brake test when the relief crew boards. Also, procedure is different for Key Trains. Basically though, cewherry has it right. Tie all the locomotives plus sufficient cars (if needed), test, lock controlling cab. I always leave a note for the oncoming crew how many brakes I tied, when the test was performed, and whether we were stradddling a Form A or Form B restriction when we parked it.

jointauthority Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No they wouldn’t. Not the lead locomotive
> atleast. Unless you want to be airtesting the
> train again....

GIve this person a Reverser shaped cookie! Also, don't leave the train in Supression after its tied down either. You'll be redoing an airtest and the look in your conductor's eyes will be priceless.

I hate when I get units from KCS where they shut down all the trailing motors. Sometimes they don’t even bother opening the knife switch or dropping all the breakers and you have a dead motor. Or even if they do everything right sometimes the motors still don’t want to crank back up and now you’re troubleshooting stuff needlessly.

I get it that it’s their rules but it’s OUR train they’re interchanging with us.

Oh well.


I’ve had bad luck getting on motors that are either in emergency, suppression/handle off or penalty. If I like the conductor or am trying to not kill the train I try to go through the logs in the computer screens and find out exactly what time it happened (if PCS opened) to avoid having to do an airtest.

If we tell you, we'll have to kill you.-BMT

On most railroads, it is the train crew's responsibility to keep track of their hours of service and notify the Dispatcher well in advance of when they will "go dead' and require a relief crew.  Typically, the Dispatcher will try to have a relief crew already transported to where the train will be re-crewed by the time the train arrives there.  That makes tying down the train unnecessary.  Where things get dicey in that scenario is if the relief crew is delayed reaching the point of re-crewing and the crew to be relieved did not give themselves time to tie down the train before going dead.  In a case like that, the crew would iikely have to violate their HOS to properly tie down the train or to remain on the train ("attending it") and that would be reported to the FRA  by the railroad.  Not a good scenario, but  neither the railroad nor the crew can, under most railroad's rules, use HOS as an excuse to leave a train improperly secured and unattended if there is no other qualified personnel available at the time to secure it.  A procedural "ding" against the crew and railroad (along with the fines to both) would be preferable to an improperly secured train roaring off down the track to a date with disaster.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/05/19 20:21 by WW.

WW, now the truth:
Crew: four hrs to work, Dispatcher (DS), got plan for us?
DS: Aware of your HOS, DS out.
Crew: two hrs to work, do we have a crew?
DS: crew ordered for xxxx (30 min before you DOL).
Crew: can we tie train down? 
DS: No. 
Crew is relieved 45 min passed their HOS. No handbrakes.
OR
Crew: two hrs to work, are we going to get in to town?
DS: stand by.
Crew: one hour left, what's the plan? Or can we tie down?
DS: Standby, DS out.
DS: (30 min later) Chief said tie train down.
Crew: (parked on 1.25% grade with 12ft stack train. Are you ****ing serious, you could of told us 1 hr ago). Roger... tie down. (30 min passed HOS, making 2nd attempt at release test. Afterall, it's flat on the Dispatcher's computer screen.
OR
DS: (1.5 hrs left) tie train down. 
Crew: Whoop! Tie it down. (Hour later on same 1.25% grade--successful securement)
DS: change of plan, untie your train. 
DS: hope you didn't untie it all, need you to tie it back down. 


 

The dispatcher is supposed to stop your train early enough so you will have time to tie the train down before your hos expires. When the crew notifies the DS they will order the crew to continue moving another 2-3 stations ahead so they are moving nearly all of their 12 hours.

The FRA says the crew MUST NOT leave a train unsecured even if securement takes them past their hos. It is only an hos violation if the train is moving after 12 hrs. There is an exception where the crew can move the train after 12 hrs in order to get the rear of the train clear of the mainline.

You find these exceptions when you call the FRA to report a violation.

Hookdragkick Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WW, now the truth:
> Crew: four hrs to work, Dispatcher (DS), got plan
> for us?
> DS: Aware of your HOS, DS out.
> Crew: two hrs to work, do we have a crew?
> DS: crew ordered for xxxx (30 min before you
> DOL).
> Crew: can we tie train down? 
> DS: No. 
> Crew is relieved 45 min passed their HOS. No
> handbrakes.
> OR
> Crew: two hrs to work, are we going to get in to
> town?
> DS: stand by.
> Crew: one hour left, what's the plan? Or can we
> tie down?
> DS: Standby, DS out.
> DS: (30 min later) Chief said tie train down.
> Crew: (parked on 1.25% grade with 12ft stack
> train. Are you ****ing serious, you could of told
> us 1 hr ago). Roger... tie down. (30 min passed
> HOS, making 2nd attempt at release test. Afterall,
> it's flat on the Dispatcher's computer screen.
> OR
> DS: (1.5 hrs left) tie train down. 
> Crew: Whoop! Tie it down. (Hour later on same
> 1.25% grade--successful securement)
> DS: change of plan, untie your train. 
> DS: hope you didn't untie it all, need you to tie
> it back down. 
>
The above is what happen's 99.9% of the time. I love the patch crew that is called on duty 30 minutes before your dead and the crew has to deadhead 1 hour or more to get to your train. Or the famous question from the DS "How far can you make it?"........

CS

fbe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The dispatcher is supposed to stop your train
> early enough so you will have time to tie the
> train down before your hos expires. When the crew
> notifies the DS they will order the crew to
> continue moving another 2-3 stations ahead so they
> are moving nearly all of their 12 hours.
>
> The FRA says the crew MUST NOT leave a train
> unsecured even if securement takes them past their
> hos. It is only an hos violation if the train is
> moving after 12 hrs. There is an exception where
> the crew can move the train after 12 hrs in order
> to get the rear of the train clear of the
> mainline.
>
> You find these exceptions when you call the FRA to
> report a violation.

Yep.  As to the description by hookdragkick of what does often really happen, yes to that, too.  One other note: for HOS violations, FRA can levy fines against both the railroad and against the crew member personally--the crew member suffering a much higher fine.

Hookdragkick Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WW, now the truth:
> Crew: four hrs to work, Dispatcher (DS), got plan
> for us?
> DS: Aware of your HOS, DS out.
~~
~~
> DS: hope you didn't untie it all, need you to tie
> it back down. 
>

DS was a Morse call sign for a train dispatcher. When Morse was still being used, this situation would not have occurred. We need a different abbreviation for whatever happens at the other end of the radio from the locomotive.

TAW

CS's "how far can you make it?", yah only to be stopped somewhere where the van can't reach, get stuck, or
otherwise. Back to killing the power, I think I still have somewhere a UP special order on not idling tied down
power for over 24 hours and DS was supposed to notify crew if train was going into long term storage. This
was all left over from the days when crews were short and terminals plugged. I don't know if that's still in
effect but used to be pretty hilarious to watch the consequences (except for the crews).

Out

A few times was called to make a patch. Recently the inbound engineer shutdown two of the Ace 70s with airstarters. Since the engines will not start without air the crew sits at the location until another unit arrives to build up the air pressure sufficient enough to start the engines.

Posted from Android

Oh yeah never do that lol

If so have a all ACe DP set I always either leave the reverser in forward or put it in notch one with the fence down when idling to avoid it auto shutting down and not being able to crank back up

SanJoaquinEngr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A few times was called to make a patch. Recently
> the inbound engineer shutdown two of the Ace 70s
> with airstarters. Since the engines will not start
> without air the crew sits at the location until
> another unit arrives to build up the air pressure
> sufficient enough to start the engines.
>
> Posted from Android

Posted from iPhone