Western Railroad Discussion > Ahhh... PSR is great!

Currently on the UP Valley Sub: The MWCEU is having air issues at Rawson. Due to the great minds at UPRR, this train is 10k plus feet. Unfortunately, they cannot drop the conductor and pull forward, as then they will block crossings. Thus, the conductor needs to walk the full 10k back, then forward to locate this leak. Meanwhile, the MPDWC in the hole at Rawson cannot leave due to the train blocking (over-length), and the IBRLC is stuck at Blunt siding. Another night on the discombobulated UPRR!

(Failed to mention, they are already down one unit due to motor issue...)

UPDATE: Van is two hours away for relief crew, car man coming from Roseville (1.5hrs)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/19 19:48 by ross.

What do crossings have to do with pulling  ahead if they are having air trouble?
G

And?? The reality is this is railroading in 2019! Get used to it. Crews and crew vans are cheap. The expense is locomotives. Welcome to 2019 and beyond! 

I don't see how this is PSR related. There were 10k foot trains before PSR, there were locomotive failures before PSR, and there were air problems before PSR. All these things will exist long after railroads abandon PSR as well. 

I don't think PSR is smart either, but just because something goes wrong on a railroad today doesn't mean its because of PSR. 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/19 20:00 by arizonaBNSF.

oneblock Wrote:
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> And?? The reality is this is railroading in 2019!
> Get used to it. Crews and crew vans are cheap. The
> expense is locomotives. Welcome to 2019 and
> beyond!

You didn't get it!  If he could move, he could clear up the Westbounds at both Rawson and Blunt...

And no, I am not qualified beyond railroading 2009, so I don't have to put up with this stupidity any more. 

Three SP crews wouldn't be stuck and waiting for help in this situation.  The conductor on the train on the siding in Rawson would have gotten off and walked over to the train on the main beside him and closed an angle cock.  This would have shown whether the trouble was ahead or behind him.  If closing the angle cock clears the problem, he opens it, and starts back with a 7000' head start on the main line conductor.   When he finds the leak, he either fixes it, or if he can't, he cuts it off and sends it out to the other conductor who has gotten off at the East switch at Rawson, who sets it in the siding behind the other train, and sends the rest of the train back to a joint with the other condr.  The siding conductor will have to flag the 'A' Signal at West Rawson if the car came out from West of it...  If the trouble is between switches at Rawson. the siding conductor and the main line conductor walk toward each other until one of them finds it, then one of them either fixes it or rides out with it to set it out.
G

arizonaBNSF Wrote:
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> I don't see how this is PSR related. There were
> 10k foot trains before PSR, there were locomotive
> failures before PSR, and there were air problems
> before PSR. All these things will exist long after
> railroads abandon PSR as well. 
>
> I don't think PSR is smart either, but just
> because something goes wrong on a railroad today
> doesn't mean its because of PSR.

SP and UP never ran 10000 ft trains prior to 2018 on the Valley Sub. They have run 10000- ft trains elsewhere throughout the system with varying degrees of success/failure. However the UP Valley Sub is mountainous territory with up to 2.2% grades and tight curves above Dunsmuir.

The train in question is a PSR train. Prior to 2019 the tonnage was run as 2 trains. Sometime during 2019 UP combined the tonnage and it is run as a "long train" until Lakehead where a certain amount of the tonnage is left behind and a Dunsmuir based helper set picks up that tonnage and runs it over the hill to either Black Butte or some place North of there where it joins the original train. 

I see these monster manifest trains run my by my work during day and wonder what would happen if they have issues along the way. Well - here's one example. 
 

I fully agree with you --- How ever with all the rules anymore and no common sense from above you can't expect much.  Can't fix stupid ! 

Just an update on operations north of Redding, the 'splitter' happens in Dunsmuir yard now, actually on the main. They combine at Black Butte and occasionally anywhere north of there.

For what ever reason (-ing ) they have stored empty double stacks in O'brien and Mt Hebron, Dorris has old covered 3-bay hoppers, TBOX cars in Modoc Point, 2-bay Covered hoppers and center beams in two sidings along the Lake below Oakridge. Stored locomotives in Dunsmuir and Klamath Falls using a yard track, couldn't see what was going on between KF and Chemult. All this makes it pretty much a single track railroad with passing at KF, Kegg, Andesite, BB, Upton, Dunsmuir and Lakehead, for anything under seven or eight thousand ft anyways. They also seem to coordinate long trains on the ex-WP line vs the East Valley.

I would think if they were serious they would start connecting sidings into 2MT for the monster trains to meet anything besides Amtrak.

ExSPCondr Wrote:
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> Three SP crews wouldn't be stuck and waiting for help in this situation.  .....

Uh-oh, now you've done it - you're talking like the SP man you were, I was, many others were. Instead of whining and complaining we'd just handle the issue without unneeded interference from managers, usually before managers could even show up. Different times today I'm afraid to say.

(Don't flame me, I'm being sarcastic because in the "old days" when you had real railroaders we'd just handle things ourselves no matter what railroad - it was what you did. Now it's wait for manager, carman, Mr. Goodwrench, and anybody else who feels like getting involved.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/15/19 06:43 by Railbaron.

Railbaron Wrote:
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>
> Uh-oh, now you've done it - you're talking like
> the SP man you were, I was, many others were.
> Instead of whining and complaining we'd just
> handle the issue without unneeded interference
> from managers, usually before managers could even
> show up.

That's how the employees kept MILW alive for years.

TAW
(operator by assignment, car knocker, gandy, brakeman, clerk, crew caller, owner of what was used as the company truck in Bellingham)

oneblock Wrote:
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> And?? The reality is this is railroading in 2019!
> Get used to it. Crews and crew vans are cheap. The
> expense is locomotives.

...unless you are proposing a passenger train, and even building track to accommodate it. Then, just imagine the voice of Herb Morrison https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_Morrison_%28announcer%29 describing how a passenger train will crater railroad operation and make the company go bankrupt (see the link in the Wikipedia article for the audio I can't link here). The train delays will be horrendously expensive and will drive away all of the customers.

It seems to me I've heard that song before
It's from an old familiar score I know it well, that melody
     (music by Jule Styne and lyrics by Sammy Cahn)

Actually, all it would take is real Precision Scheduled Railroading instead of PSM, but virtually nobody wants to hear it.

To dream the impossible dream
To fight the unbeatable foe
     (music by Mitch Leigh, lyrics by Joe Darion)

TAW

The only thing PSR about it is the length.  SP routinely ran 8,000+ ft  eastbounds in the “good old days” with junk power.  We also had brakeman and cabooses to handle issues like this, prior to the Cantara Loop spill.  

Water grade to Dunsmuir.  4 working old SD’s handled 4-5k tons, 8,000’ well enough.  Doing track speed up the canyon with UP power was like a dream come true.  2.2% above Dunsmuir to Mott after the helper was added or train split.  Saw Rawson sewed up many times over the years.  Did that myself with a drawbar falling out near the head end of a DPU train.  Several hours to resolve that one with both #11, #14 and freight trains blocked for quite some time.   I sat behind a train at Rawson for hours one day with the southbound ahead broke in 4 pieces.  Conductors on both trains replacing knuckles before roving carman showed up.   Sad about the fatalities lately.  

It would behoove UP to learn not to run trains that only fit in Gerber Siding PSR or not.  

Sphogger

You’re assuming that these now days crews actually give a damn.  I doubt they do.

.ExSPCondr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> oneblock Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > And?? The reality is this is railroading in
> 2019!
> > Get used to it. Crews and crew vans are cheap.
> The
> > expense is locomotives. Welcome to 2019 and
> > beyond!
>
> You didn't get it!  If he could move, he could
> clear up the Westbounds at both Rawson and
> Blunt...
>
> And no, I am not qualified beyond railroading
> 2009, so I don't have to put up with this
> stupidity any more. 
>
> Three SP crews wouldn't be stuck and waiting for
> help in this situation.  The conductor on the
> train on the siding in Rawson would have gotten
> off and walked over to the train on the main
> beside him and closed an angle cock.  This would
> have shown whether the trouble was ahead or behind
> him.  If closing the angle cock clears the
> problem, he opens it, and starts back with a 7000'
> head start on the main line conductor.   When he
> finds the leak, he either fixes it, or if he
> can't, he cuts it off and sends it out to the
> other conductor who has gotten off at the East
> switch at Rawson, who sets it in the siding behind
> the other train, and sends the rest of the train
> back to a joint with the other condr.  The siding
> conductor will have to flag the 'A' Signal at West
> Rawson if the car came out from West of it...  If
> the trouble is between switches at Rawson. the
> siding conductor and the main line conductor walk
> toward each other until one of them finds it, then
> one of them either fixes it or rides out with it
> to set it out.
> G

donner_dude1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The train in question is a PSR train. Prior to 2019 the tonnage was run as 2 trains. Sometime
> during 2019 UP combined the tonnage and it is run as a "long train" until Lakehead where a certain
> amount of the tonnage is left behind and a Dunsmuir based helper set picks up that tonnage
> and runs it over the hill to either Black Butte or some place North of there where it joins the
> original train. 

With the stroke of a pen they moved the train make up restrictions that had started at Lakehead and went northward to now start at Dunsmuir instead. Seems the helper crews out of Dunsmuir getting double departure claims was getting under their skin.
 

“With the stroke of a pen....”  sounds like a familiar brand of modern railroading.  It works so push the limits until it doesn’t work. 

sphogger

sphogger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> “With the stroke of a pen....”  sounds like a
> familiar brand of modern railroading.  It works
> so push the limits until it doesn’t work. 
>
> sphogger

Well, it wasn't "just" a stroke of the pen. The Service Unit paid for the Rail Sciences team to come out and re-evalute the territory. That is what they came up with. They also surveyed north of Dunsmuir, but were unable to recommend any significant changes.

portlander Wrote:
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> Well, it wasn't "just" a stroke of the pen. The Service Unit paid for the Rail Sciences team to
> come out and re-evalute the territory. That is what they came up with. They also surveyed north
> of Dunsmuir, but were unable to recommend any significant changes.

The re-evaluation only came when the claims where becoming an annoyance. Notice how for years when there were no claims they never bothered to re-evaluate. And isn't it just convenient that their hired help came up with the exact option they wanted? What an amazing coincidence. Guess the laws of physics somehow changed. smh



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/19 12:02 by ble692.

ble692 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> With the stroke of a pen they moved the train make
> up restrictions that had started at Lakehead and
> went northward to now start at Dunsmuir instead.
> Seems the helper crews out of Dunsmuir getting
> double departure claims was getting under their
> skin.
>  

What is a double departure claim?

donner_dude1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ble692 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > With the stroke of a pen they moved the train
> make
> > up restrictions that had started at Lakehead
> and
> > went northward to now start at Dunsmuir
> instead.
> > Seems the helper crews out of Dunsmuir getting
> > double departure claims was getting under their
> > skin.
> >  
>
> What is a double departure claim?
Helper crews get paid for a trip out of the home terminal and back.   If they come back into the home terminal and leave again, they are paid for a second trip.
G

donner_dude1 Wrote:
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> What is a double departure claim?

The crew gets paid a second basic day's pay (8 hours + 8 hours). How it happens...

A crew on short turn around service departs their on duty terminal, makes it to a point beyond the 25 mile zone of their terminal, turns around and returns to their on duty terminal. They then departs the on duty terminal a second time, turning around at some point beyond it, and then return to the on duty terminal for a second time to tie-up.

In the case here, the crews were going Dunsmuir --> Lakehead --> Dunsmuir --> Black Butte --> Dunsmuir. They departed Dunsmuir twice in a tour of duty. Double departure. It's all part of the long standing collective bargaining agreement for both the engineers and conductors, at least on the SP Western Lines Agreement which is the prevailing agreement in Dunsmuir. When the company started getting hit with a lot of these claims in Dunsmuir someone in Labor Relations obviously didn't like it and sought to change the train makeup rules, since they can't just arbitrarily change the collective bargaining agreement.