Western Railroad Discussion > Stevens Pass Shut Down Again!

BNSF is really getting walloped in the Cascades this winter. For the third time in a month, Stevens Pass is shut down. First came heavy snows that toppled trees and closed the line for almost a week. Then a few days ago a washout near Baring closed the line. Now a slide/washout has the line closed between Skykomish and Scenic. No estimate on reopening yet.

Ted Curphey
Ontario, OR

funnelfan Wrote:
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> No estimate
> on reopening yet.

Last estimate I saw was 9 pm Pacific time.

Thanks for the info. Any idea how UP is doing in the Blues this winter? When I was there around Christmas they were having issues with stalls/power trouble on trains (three in one day on the big hill that needed help!) but the snow season didn't seem anything particularly harsh (relative to some years) yet. 

Maybe it's time to increase clearances on Stampede Pass???

coach Wrote:
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> Maybe it's time to increase clearances on Stampede
> Pass???

Just some speculation here from me.  Looking at a map of Stampede Pass, I would think BNSF would be smarter to build a new tunnel.  It would
be about as long as the current Cascade Tunnel in Stevens Pass and elminate a lot of curvature and restricted clearance tunnels.  I don't expect this
to happen, if at all, any time soon.  

The latest issue of TRAINS has an article on the operation of the Cascade Tunnel with some quotes from our own TAW.  A comment was made at the
end of the piece of revising operations and I'm wondering if this means a restoration of the electric operation which would eliminate the fume problem, 
I think.  Either way, BNSF continues to have capacity problems in Washington crossing the Cascades.  

Again, speculation and guessing here.  

Nick Tharalson,
Marion, IA

FiestaFoamer Wrote:
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> Thanks for the info. Any idea how UP is doing in
> the Blues this winter? When I was there around
> Christmas they were having issues with
> stalls/power trouble on trains (three in one day
> on the big hill that needed help!) but the snow
> season didn't seem anything particularly harsh
> (relative to some years) yet. 

This sounds more like UP's self-imposed problems with their PSR programs of shutting down shops and going into a likely deferred/low maintenance philosophy; in addition to running trains with only the minimum amount of power.

A family phone call on Sunday was about witnessing a UP monster land barge drag freight stalled on the climb out of the Snake River canyon west of Glenns Ferry ID.  A later westbound freight cut off its power to push the stalled land barge up the hill.  That must be the "precision" part of PSR, run until you stall, then wait for another train to push you up the hill - probably all part of the plan (LOL)....

As for BNSF in the Pacific Northwest, nothing unusual about all of this in wet winter years (there has been a lot of wet, warmer storms this winter (which translates into very wet, heavy snow in the mountains and flooding when it turns to rain).  Fortunately, no major problems so far as these issues get cleaned up pretty fast.

ntharalson Wrote:
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> coach Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Maybe it's time to increase clearances on
> Stampede
> > Pass???
>
> Just some speculation here from me.  Looking at a
> map of Stampede Pass, I would think BNSF would be
> smarter to build a new tunnel.  It would
> be about as long as the current Cascade Tunnel in
> Stevens Pass and elminate a lot of curvature and
> restricted clearance tunnels.  I don't expect
> this
> to happen, if at all, any time soon.  


During the development of the Cascades service (and the Sounder service), The Ports of Seattle, Tacoma, Longview, and Kalama all insisted that passenger trains would ruin them; drive them out of business. There were BN folks pushing that narrative and insisting that passenger trains would bankrupt BN. The government would confiscate their railroad for passenger trains and all of the freight customers would go away. There was a battle that went on for years. At the time, the railroad was a turkey trail, between Tacoma and north of Interbay, not so much so between Interbay and Everett, and between Everett and Vancouver BC. I was responding to WSDOT that reality was that east-west was the problem. The line between Portland and Everett was like a hydrant supplying garden hoses. I made the attached drawing to illustrate the point.

The drawing found its way across the street to the legislature. They were concerned enough to call for a study to determine if the lack of railroad capacity would affect the economy. They funded a study mostly done by an economic research firm. I worked with an engineering company on the capacity to handle the traffic the economic team projected. The result was
https://www.dropbox.com/s/buzckyp3s4thxqg/RailFinalReport.pdf?dl=0

As part of that work, we looked into alternatives to the existing tunnels. It turns out that, just like alternatives to Tehachapi, there were concepts discussed way back into history. The concepts ranged from about 9,000 feet to 14,000 feet and included connecting to the MILW east of Hyak and the the GN route around Quincy. My favorite was, if you're going to tunnel, eliminate the worst grade and go the 14 mile route, Lester to Easton.

TAW



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/20 18:40 by TAW.

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ntharalson Wrote:
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>  A comment was made at the
> end of the piece of revising operations and I'm
> wondering if this means a restoration of the
> electric operation which would eliminate the fume
> problem, 

Electrification would not change the running time betwseen sidings, which is the capacity limiting factor. The fumes in the tunnel are not the capacity limitation. https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,1669967,1670321#1670321 Date: 05/13/08 19:13 Re: New Cascade Tunnel Washington Author: TAW

TAW

Maybe BN / BNSF wishes now that they would have hung on to the MILW from Renton to Cle Elum.

Ooh, that Portland to Hinkle forecast brought a chuckle!! Nicely prepared map and survey, all it needed was a bunch of money. 

Out

CA_Sou_MA_Agent Wrote:
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> Maybe BN / BNSF wishes now that they would have
> hung on to the MILW from Renton to Cle Elum.

Wasn't aware that they had ever brought it.

PHall Wrote:
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> CA_Sou_MA_Agent Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Maybe BN / BNSF wishes now that they would have
> > hung on to the MILW from Renton to Cle Elum.
>
> Wasn't aware that they had ever brought it.

Yup, bought it, surveyed a connection around Ravensdale and around Cabin Creek...then tore it out.

TAW

Stevens Pass is forecasted to get as much as two more feet of snow between Tuesday
afternoon and Wednesday night.
 

TAW Wrote:
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> Yup, bought it, surveyed a connection around Ravensdale and around Cabin Creek...then tore it out.

I remember seeing it in BN employee timetables and Amtrak detoured over it for quite a while when there was a big washout on the NP line.  I'm kicking myself that I didn't ride over the line when I had the chance. 

There's a train scene in the movie "Continental Divide" that was filmed at Cedar Falls.  BN had gone to the trouble of repainting some of the lineside structures in their green and white colors.  And then, like you said, they abandoned it.    
 

These kinds of service interruptions aren’t enough to justify doing any kind of extensive work on the Stampede tunnel as far as the carrier is concerned. Now had they done something about it years ago, say during one of their phases of spending money on Stampede it would have paid for itself by now. It’s just too bad nobody has ever pulled the trigger on that part of the line.

GN599 Wrote:
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> These kinds of service interruptions aren’t
> enough to justify doing any kind of extensive work
> on the Stampede tunnel as far as the carrier is
> concerned. Now had they done something about it
> years ago, say during one of their phases of
> spending money on Stampede it would have paid for
> itself by now. It’s just too bad nobody has ever
> pulled the trigger on that part of the line.

It was to be part of the re-opening of the line. Krebs wanted it done sooner and increasing tunntl clearance was skipped to make Krebs' opening date happen.

TAW

CA_Sou_MA_Agent wrote:

> I remember seeing it in BN employee timetables and Amtrak detoured over it for quite a while when there was a big washout on the NP line.  I'm kicking myself that I didn't ride over the line
> when I had the chance. 

I did make that trip, in what I believe was sometime early in 1978 or 9. ​I of course stationed myself in the front seat of the dome to take in the rare mileage. The old Milwaukee Road track was in pretty terrible shape by that time, and I don't believe the North Coast Hiawatha went over 25mph the whole way. That train rocked and rolled harder than the Rolling Stones. Once the engineer tried taking it up to 30 (as I was told by the conductor), but the train almost bounced right off the track and they immediately brought it back down to 25. Seeing the cars swaying back and forth, as well as bouncing up and down all in asymmetry with each other was fascinating, at times alarmingly so, as witnessed from above the roofline up in the dome. Especially when negotiating those high curved trestles up in the Cascades, which due to the superelevation, made you seem to look straight down into the ravine, at one bridge down to some boxcars that weren't as lucky as our car.

Once we had plodded over that stretch of line, which I think might be 70 miles and which took 4-5 hours to get over, we switched over to the ex-NP at Easton, where the NCH proceeded to take the velvety smooth welded rail at the normal track speed (79mph?).​ The transition was akin to hitting blacktop after driving 30 miles on an old pot-holed logging road. One trip that can never be taken again, that for once I don't also have to kick myself for not having taken it.

alally8444 Wrote:
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> I did make that trip, in what I believe was sometime early in 1978 or 9. ​I of course stationed myself in the front seat of the dome to take in the rare mileage. The old Milwaukee Road track was in pretty terrible shape by that time, and I don't believe the North Coast Hiawatha went over 25mph the whole way. That train rocked and rolled harder than the Rolling Stones. Once the engineer tried taking it up to 30 (as I was told by the conductor), but the train almost bounced right off the track and they immediately brought it back down to 25. Seeing the cars swaying back and forth, as well as bouncing up and down all in asymmetry with each other was fascinating, at times alarmingly so, as witnessed from above the roofline up in the dome. Especially when negotiating those high curved trestles up in the Cascades, which due to the superelevation, made you seem to look straight down into the ravine, at one bridge down to some boxcars that weren't as lucky as our car. Once we had plodded over that stretch of line, which I think might be 70 miles and which took 4-5 hours to get over, we switched over to the ex-NP at Easton, where the NCH proceeded to take the velvety smooth welded rail at the normal track speed (79mph?).​ The transition was akin to hitting blacktop after driving 30 miles on an old pot-holed logging road. One trip that can never be taken again, that for once I don't also have to kick myself for not having taken it.

Wow.  I am envious.  Yes, the MILW was in pretty sad shape in its last years.  Another detour they made for a few weeks with the NCH due to a washout on the NP was in Montana between Sappington and Miles City.  That covered some really good scenery in Sixteen Mile Canyon.  

The Milwaukee western extension is just a memory now.  

It's a nit, but the North Coast Hiawatha used the Stevens Pass route.   A trip over Stampede in the 1970s would have been on the Empire Builder, which didn't revert back to Stevens until (I think) 1981.

yorknl wrote:
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> It's a nit, but the North Coast Hiawatha used the Stevens Pass route.   A trip over Stampede in the 1970s would have been on the Empire Builder, which didn't revert back to Stevens until (I think) 1981.​​

Yup, that occurred to me after posting. When the Empire Buider & NCH both ran, Amtrak operated the EB from Seattle to Spokane over the ex-NP, then back to it's ancestral route over the ex-GN; conversely, the NCH ran ex-GN to Spokane, ex-NP the rest of the way. When the NCH was discontinued, the EB ran ex-GN all the way. ​

Man, I wish I'd known about the reroute in Montana! I'd have dropped everything to go ride that one like I did in WA.​